Richbee

You don't know the meaning of inerrant..

Nightson

Amazing rebuttal.

Richbee

What Ten (10) Facts did you miss?

Really?

Nothing written?

Creeds and Hymns

Paul’s letters contain a number of creeds and hymns (Rom. 1:3-4;1 Cor. 11:23 ff.;15:3-8; Phil. 2:6_11; Col.1:15-18;1 Tim. 3:16; 2 Tim. 2:8; see also John 1:1-18; 1 Peter 3:18-22; 1 John 4:2). Three things can be said about them. First, they are pre-Pauline and very early. They use language which is not characteristically Pauline, they often translate easily back into Aramaic, and they show features of Hebrew poetry and thought-forms. This means that they came into existence while the church was heavily Jewish and that they became standard, recognized creeds and hymns well before their incorporation into Paul's letters. Most scholars date them from 33 to 48 A.D.. Some, like Hengel, date many of them in the first decade after Jesus’ death.

Second, the content of these creeds and hymns centers on the death, resurrection, and deity of Christ. They consistently present a portrait of a miraculous and divine Jesus who rose from the dead. Third, they served as hymns of worship in the liturgy of the early assemblies and as didactic expressions for teaching the Christology of the church.

In sum, the idea of a fully divine, miracle-working Jesus who rose from the dead was present during the first decade of Christianity. Such a view was not a legend which arose several decades after the crucifixion.

Galatians 1 and 2

All scholars agree that Galatians was written by Paul. Paul tells us that he received his understanding of who Jesus was and what he did from a supernatural experience within a year or two after the crucifixion. He also points out that he went to Jerusalem three years later and the apostles there agreed that his message of a divine Son of God who was crucified and rose from the dead was correct.

Read Paul's testimony, in:

Galatians 1:11 - 18 "..the gospel I preach is not something man made up.." "..I persecuted the Church and tried to destroy it...I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews, and extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers...verse 18: "Then after three years I stayed with Peter, James, etc, in Jerusalem. ( ~ 33 or 35 A.D.)


There is no reason to doubt that Paul visited the apostles, since he has no dear motive for lying and, further, such a visit fits well with the Jewish practice of looking to authorized teachers of a rabbi's doctrines for controls on doctrinal purity.

Thus, belief in a divine, risen Jesus was in existence within just a few years after his death.

Excerpt from Scaling the Secular City - By J.P. Moreland - Chapter 5: The Historicity of the New Testament

CONT.

Nightson

And you don't know the meaning of false dichotomy.

Richbee

Luke wrote his gospel first, and Acts ended before 64 A.D. and the death of Paul. It is difficult to say when each and every Gospel was widely available, but there is evidence that Paul had one or more gospel accounts!

What Did Paul Know About Jesus?

It is often remarked that Paul does not know much about Jesus. It
must be admitted that the Gospels give us more detail and information
about Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection (and in the case of
Matthew and Luke, his birth) than do Paul's letters. Of course,
this is largely due to the fact that Paul was writing letters, not
narratives. And his letters, for the most part, were
"occasional." By "occasional" I mean that Paul wrote in response
to specific issues of which he had become aware. Nevertheless, in
addition to echoing many of Jesus' teachings as preserved in the
canonical Gospels, Paul's occasional letters demonstrate a familiarity
with many aspects of Jesus' life and ministry. I list many of
these references here:

1. Jesus was divine and pre-existent
• Col. 1:15-16 (John 1:1)

2. Jesus was born in human fashion, as a Jew, and had a ministry to the Jews
• Gal. 4:4, Romans 15:8

3. Jesus was referred to as “Son of God”
• 1 Cor. 1:9 (Mark 1:1)

4. Jesus was a direct descendent of King David
• Romans 1:3 (Matt. 1:1; Luke 1:27)

5. Jesus was a direct descendent of Abraham
• Gal. 3:16 (Matt. 1:1; Luke 1:27)

6. Jesus' upbringing was under the Jewish Law
• Gal. 4:4 (Luke 2:21-52)

7. Jesus prayed to God using the term “abba”
• Gal. 4:6; Romans 8:15-16 (Mark 14:36)

8. Jesus expressly forbid divorce
• 1 Cor. 7:10 (Mark 10:6-10)

9. Jesus taught that “preachers” should be paid for their preaching
• 1 Cor. 7:11; 9:14 (Luke 10:10)

10. Jesus taught about the end-time/eschatology
• 1 Thess. 4:15 (Matt. 24:6-31)

11. Paul refers to Peter by the name Cephas (rock), as did Jesus
• 1 Cor. 3:22 (Matt. 16:18)

12. Jesus had a brother named James
• Gal. 1:19, 1 Cor. 15:6-7 (Matt. 13:55; Mark 6:3)

13. Jesus initiated the Lord’s Supper
• 1 Cor. 11:23-25 (see Matt. 26:26-29)

14. Jesus was betrayed on the night of the Lord’s Supper
• 1 Cor. 11:23-25 (see Matt. 26:25)

15. The death of Jesus was at the hands of earthly rulers
• 1 Cor. 2:8 (Matt. 27:1-50; Mark 15:1-47)

16. Jewish authorities were involved with Jesus’ death
• 1 Thess. 2:14-16 (Matt. 27:1-3; Mark 15:1)

17. Jesus died by crucifixion
• 1 Cor. 1:23; 2 Cor. 13:4; Galatians 3:1 (Matt. 27:1-50; Mark 15:1-47)

18. Jesus was physically buried
• 1 Cor. 15:4; Rom. 6:4 (Mark 15:43-47; Matt. 27:58-66);

19. Jesus was resurrected from the dead
• Romans 1:4; 1 Cor. 15:4-7 (Luke 24:1-53; Mark 16:1-20; Matt. 28:1-20; John 20:1-21:25))

20. The resurrection occurred on the third day
• 1 Cor. 15:4 (Luke 24:7, 21, 46)

21. Jesus appeared to his followers on distinct occasions following his resurrection
• 1 Cor. 15:4-7 (Luke 24:1-53; Mark 16:1-20; Matt. 28:1-20; John 20:1-21:25)

I have rearranged the order of these statements in that described in
the written gospels and have attempted to largely place them as they
are laid out in the gospels. Because Paul’s epistles were not
written in a narrative framework we should not expect them to be in
chronological order. Nevertheless, they are powerful
witnesses to the early church’s beliefs. In short, “the outline
of the gospel story as we can trace it in the writings of Paul agrees
with the outline which we find elsewhere in the New Testament, and in
the four Gospels in particular.” F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents,
page 79. Thus, the idea that Paul did not know any facts about a
human Jesus -- often used to support the Jesus Myth fantasy -- is
itself a myth.

Are you sure about that? All Jewish Rabbis had scribes or students that first committed teachings to memory and yes, then to writing! Is this a surprise in a highly literate society of educated Jews?

Really? So, you've never read about the crucifixion of Peter in Rome?

The stoning of Stephen?

Are you for real? (Who brain washed you?)

2 Peter 1:16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." [See: Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

Nightson

What are you talking about? 50 AD is the lower date for this even among conservative scholars. It is certainly not a matter of most.

Richbee

I don't take points of faith or highlights as required.

I don't recall Jesus setting up hurdles or obstacles to salvation?

Richbee

<edit>

Richbee

Good luck with that post! LOL!

Do you deny that Irenaeus knew Polycarp personally?

James Kiefer in summary:

Irenaeus (pronounced eye-ren-EE-S) was probably born around 125. As a young man in Smyrna (near Ephesus, in what is now western Turkey) he heard the preaching of Polycarp, who as a young man had heard the preaching of the Apostle John. Afterward, probably while still a young man, Polycarp moved west to Lyons in southern France. In 177, Pothinus, the bishop of Lyons, sent him on a mission to Rome. During his absence a severe persecution broke out in Lyons, claiming the lives of the bishop and others. When Irenaeus returned to Lyons, he was made bishop. He died around 202. He is thus an important link between the apostolic church and later times, and also an important link between Eastern and Western Christianity.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/194.html

cjack

Facts? What facts?



Plenty of people died by crucifiction back then. It was trendy. Factual, but hardly remarkable.

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2. Jesus was then placed in a tomb.

Wow. Who'da thunk they'd put a dead guy in a tomb? I know (or rather, knew) plenty of people who've been placed in a tomb. Doesn't exactly make them divine.

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3. A few days later, the tomb was found empty.

Freaking grave-robbers! Anyway, what's with the followers of Jesus digging him up a few days later? Can't they let the guy be dead?

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4. Soon after, the Apostles began testifying that Jesus had risen from the dead.

And yet no contemporary historian mentions the Zombie Jesus...mmm...

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5. The Apostles really believed they had seen Jesus alive again.

Look, my college roommate swears up and down he saw aliens, but I chalk it up to all the acid he was doing at the time...

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6. Even opponents and skeptics of Christianity at the time claimed to have seen Jesus alive again, and their lives were transformed as a consequence.

Well if I'd seen a zombie Jesus walking aroud I'd be pretty freaked out, too.

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7. Almost all of the Apostles eventually died for their testimony that they had seen the resurrected Jesus.

Well to be fair, everyone eventually dies. Everyone.

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8. In the face of brutal persecution, the movement of Christianity grew beyond all reasonable expectation.

Proof that there is a sucker born every minute.

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9. The belief that Jesus was physically raised from the dead was central and foundational to Christianity from the very beginning.

Ibid.

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10. The corpse of Jesus has never been produced.

And holy crap would he smell bad if we did!