Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 06-08-2005, 05:43 AM

The review is up on The Sword, my NT & Christianity blog here.

I'm still not sure how to regard this book. I wish Atwill had concentrated on simply bringing to light the disturbing congruences between the New Testament and Josephus, and not dragged in Titus until the last chapter, maybe. But there's lots here that is very challenging. If I can get permission from Atwill, I'd live to post extensively on his view of the Test. Flav. Very original, I think, and very interesting.

Vorkosigan

RED DAVE · 06-08-2005, 05:56 AM

Link ain't working.

RED DAVE

Vorkosigan · 06-08-2005, 06:03 AM

Is too! But my blog's URL is

http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com

It is currently the second entry.

S.C.Carlson · 06-08-2005, 06:19 AM

The working url appears to be: http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...s-messiah.html

Amaleq13 · 06-08-2005, 08:26 AM

I fixed the url in the OP. -Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

Clivedurdle · 06-08-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Chapter 3 gives us Atwill’s discussion of the strange tale of Cannibal Mary. For readers who have read Josephus many times, Atwill’s claim that she represents a parody of Christianity will come as a shock. Yet it is hard to see a woman named Mary who kills and eats her son in the manner of a Passover sacrifice as anything but a satire on the tale of Jesus as told in the Gospels. Atwill observes that the words in her mouth were placed there by Josephus, and if read as a satire on Christianity, they take on a new and portentous meaning:

“As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews.�?(Whiston translation, cited on p46)

Why should anyone roasting and eating their own child expect it to be a “by-word to the world�? and a fury to the “seditious varlets,�? the Jewish rebels? As Atwill points out, if this scene were in a piece of modern literature, it would instantly be seen by everyone as a parody of Christianity. Nor is Atwill the first scholar to have had this insight into the passage, for Honora H. Chapman noted parallels between the 'Cannibal Mary passage' in Josephus and the symbolic Passover Lamb of the Gospels in her SBL seminar paper 'A Myth for the World', Early Christian Reception of Infanticide and Cannibalism in Josephus' Bellum Judaicum' (2000).

Can we discuss this further? How can what I thought were actual happenings in a seige be satire?

Toto · 06-08-2005, 02:19 PM

Why would you assume that they are actual happenings? Even if there were cannibalism, why would you assume that the speech there is accurate, and not a contrived editorial comment?

(And what's with all the   on the blog entry?)

Vorkosigan · 06-08-2005, 04:32 PM

Effing weird, because I use Firefox and things are perfectly clear. But in Internet Explorer it's a disaster. I think I have to redo those entries. Can you see the sidebar there?

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan · 06-08-2005, 05:34 PM

Blog problems fixed. IE just can't handle it.

Vorkosigan · 06-08-2005, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Can we discuss this further? How can what I thought were actual happenings in a seige be satire?

Sorrry, man! Get hold of the book. The writer of Josephus has clearly adjusted much of the data.

06-08-2005, 05:43 AM	#1
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Book Review: Caesar's Messiah The review is up on The Sword, my NT & Christianity blog here. I'm still not sure how to regard this book. I wish Atwill had concentrated on simply bringing to light the disturbing congruences between the New Testament and Josephus, and not dragged in Titus until the last chapter, maybe. But there's lots here that is very challenging. If I can get permission from Atwill, I'd live to post extensively on his view of the Test. Flav. Very original, I think, and very interesting. Vorkosigan

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06-08-2005, 05:56 AM	#2
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	Link ain't working. RED DAVE

06-08-2005, 06:03 AM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Is too! But my blog's URL is http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com It is currently the second entry.

06-08-2005, 06:19 AM	#4
S.C.Carlson Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,307	The working url appears to be: http://michaelturton2.blogspot.com/2...s-messiah.html

06-08-2005, 08:26 AM	#5
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	I fixed the url in the OP. -Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

06-08-2005, 02:19 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Why would you assume that they are actual happenings? Even if there were cannibalism, why would you assume that the speech there is accurate, and not a contrived editorial comment? (And what's with all the <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> on the blog entry?)

06-08-2005, 04:32 PM	#8
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Effing weird, because I use Firefox and things are perfectly clear. But in Internet Explorer it's a disaster. I think I have to redo those entries. Can you see the sidebar there? Vorkosigan

06-08-2005, 05:34 PM	#9
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Blog problems fixed. IE just can't handle it.

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