Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ksen · 11-20-2008, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Slavery. People today are false visualizing about the voluntary slavery of Israel and comparing it with the brutal Western system of Slavery. Lets turn to the text and discover the major differences.

"He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death." Exodus 22. The Western slave trade depended almost entirely on the above pratices. Israel did not engage in such practices to gain slaves. They bought their slaves who sold themselves into slavery which was a common practice in ancient times.

Slaves who were injured by their masters could gain freedom, the injury paid their debt which was aquired when they sold themselves. Critics will say this was for indentured servents, but seeing that this servent was not free shows that this law were for slaves as well.

"You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; YOU SHALL NOT OPPRESS HIM." deut. 23

This one law alone destroys the comparison between Israel and Western slavery, as well as the argument that God or Moses supports slavery. If the slaves felt that they were being treated unjustly, and they decide to flee to freedom, no one was to deny them this right. In the West Petty-Rollers patrol the woods and streets preventing and looking for escaped slaves to return them to thier murderous slave masters, Israel was prevented by said law of this cruel hunting. After this law there is no need to go any further in this arguement. That one law alone destroys the accusation of critics concerning God's supposedly support of slavery but lets hear what Jesus says about it.

A much more accurate assessement is as follows:

Item 1

Exodus 21:2-4 (NIV)

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free."

Item 2

Exodus 21:12-14 (NIV)

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death."

Item 3

Exodus 21:20-21 (NIV)

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Item 4

Leviticus 25:44-45 (NIV)

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Regarding item 1, please note that after six years, a Hebrew slave gained his freedom, but item 4 shows that slaves from other nations could be forced to be slaves for life. Part of item 4 says "You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." That is a good example of racial bigotry, but what else should one expect from a race of people who appointed themselves as God's chosen people. Chosen for what?

Regarding item 2, if a Hebrew deliberately killed another Hebrew, he was put to death, but item 3 shows that if a Hebrew deliberately killed a slave, he was not put to death, only punished, but not punished at all if the slave recovered in a day or two. That is more proof of racial bigotry.

Hmmm, you mean tribes of people tend to treat people from other tribes differently? I'm shocked!

Exciter · 11-20-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Hmmm, you mean tribes of people tend to treat people from other tribes differently? I'm shocked!

These were mandated by God, your God. you should be outraged. What if it was some child you connected with that your God decided shall become a slave to the Jews? I'm only assuming but it's my guess you aren't Jewish.

ksen · 11-20-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exciter

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Hmmm, you mean tribes of people tend to treat people from other tribes differently? I'm shocked!

These were mandated by God, your God. you should be outraged. What if it was some child you connected with that your God decided shall become a slave to the Jews? I'm only assuming but it's my guess you aren't Jewish.

Sure with 21st century sensibilities I'd be outraged.

With 15th century BC sensibilities. not so much. Actually if I were alive back then I'd be amazed at the liberalilty with which the Jewish people treated their slaves/indentured servants.

Deus Ex · 11-20-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exciter

These were mandated by God, your God. you should be outraged. What if it was some child you connected with that your God decided shall become a slave to the Jews? I'm only assuming but it's my guess you aren't Jewish.

Sure with 21st century sensibilities I'd be outraged.

With 15th century BC sensibilities. not so much. Actually if I were alive back then I'd be amazed at the liberalilty with which the Jewish people treated their slaves/indentured servants.

So God's morality is relative; it changes with the times. Most believers claim that God's morality is objective, absolute, and unchanging.

Sabine Grant · 11-20-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exciter

These were mandated by God, your God. you should be outraged. What if it was some child you connected with that your God decided shall become a slave to the Jews? I'm only assuming but it's my guess you aren't Jewish.

Sure with 21st century sensibilities I'd be outraged.

With 15th century BC sensibilities. not so much. Actually if I were alive back then I'd be amazed at the liberalilty with which the Jewish people treated their slaves/indentured servants.

But Ksen, the very notion of maintaining someone into a state of perpetual dependency is exploitative. Whether it be emotional, mental or physical dependency. The Jewish people had the ability to give wages to their laborers so that they would become economically self supportive for their basic living needs. By trading labor for food and shelter, they did not equip them out of dependency.

It is pure exploitation. Slavery is pure exploitation as it involves one party desperate to meet basic and vital living needs and one party who will exploit such desperate need and maintain the other party in such condition.

I would not call Labor Laws which protect you and me from such exploitation a "sensibility". Nor do I consider any civil rights movement to be the product of "sensibilities". I call it a contribution to the betterment of mankind. And no alleged deity will ever convince me otherwise.

Once more, such slavery practiced by the Hebrews was encouraged by the deity you entrust to "guide your steps". I entrust the human mind to rid off any exploitative practices targeting the poor, the weak, the ignorant, etc...

I would expect you to provide a salary to an impoverished man coming to your door looking for labor. I would also expect you to provide him with water and a meal to sustain his efforts. You would have to treat him as you would hope to be treated if in such dire condition of deprivation. Such expectation is the result of human empathy. A quality your deity cannot demonstrate as he has placed himself on a pedestal of self indulgence and self centerism.

ksen · 11-20-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Sure with 21st century sensibilities I'd be outraged.

With 15th century BC sensibilities. not so much. Actually if I were alive back then I'd be amazed at the liberalilty with which the Jewish people treated their slaves/indentured servants.

So God's morality is relative; it changes with the times. Most believers claim that God's morality is objective, absolute, and unchanging.

Either that or he progressively reveals his morality and standards human society evolves enough to handle it. :huh:

Exciter · 11-20-2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exciter

These were mandated by God, your God. you should be outraged. What if it was some child you connected with that your God decided shall become a slave to the Jews? I'm only assuming but it's my guess you aren't Jewish.

Sure with 21st century sensibilities I'd be outraged.

How so? Your God hasn't changed has He? It's been a long time by human standards, but to God, it was like two seconds ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

With 15th century BC sensibilities. not so much. Actually if I were alive back then I'd be amazed at the liberalilty with which the Jewish people treated their slaves/indentured servants.

But not if you or your cild were a slave, I bet.

ksen · 11-20-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exciter

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

With 15th century BC sensibilities. not so much. Actually if I were alive back then I'd be amazed at the liberalilty with which the Jewish people treated their slaves/indentured servants.

But not if you or your cild were a slave, I bet.

If I were alive back then and my child were a slave I'd much rather he be a slave in a nation ruled by the God of the Bible then anywhere else at the time.

Deus Ex · 11-20-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

So God's morality is relative; it changes with the times. Most believers claim that God's morality is objective, absolute, and unchanging.

Either that or he progressively reveals his morality and standards human society evolves enough to handle it. :huh:

Then I sure would have hated to have been a Canaanite when God progressively revealed his morality by ordering the slaughter of my entire tribe of people. Good thing God mellowed a little when he killed his boy around 33 AD. He was all love and mercy, then (except for the whole hell thing).

Course, he will get back to his Old Testament Smiting Self when Revelations hits us.

Exciter · 11-20-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exciter

But not if you or your cild were a slave, I bet.

If I were alive back then and my child were a slave I'd much rather he be a slave in a nation ruled by the God of the Bible then anywhere else at the time.

You wouldn't have believed in the God of the Bible though.

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