Orthodox_Freethinker

In the beginning of my junior year of high school, before I eventually converted to the Orthodox faith, I dedicated myself to debunking the claims of Christian apologetics. The easiest claim to refute, apparently, was that the willingness of one to die for a belief somehow confirmed the truthfulness of his belief.
Most Christians consider this martyrdom argument to be absurd for any faith but their own. The special consideration given to early Christian martyrdom is that the Apostles were in the unique position to know for a fact whether or not Jesus of Nazareth physically rose from the dead in fulfillment of his claims to divinity. One thing Christian apologists forget, however, is that the martyrdom of the Apostles does not prove that they died voluntarily.
One must acknowledge the diverse amount of messianic movements in the first century; each having its founder slaughtered by the state, each having its adherents hunted down and likewise killed whether they remained faithful or not.
Furthermore, even if they willingly died for the belief that Jesus was divine, this does not require that their belief was identical to modern Christians. If not identical, their martyrdom provides no verification for popular Christianity. It is possible that the early Christians considered Jesus to be the Messiah, one in a unique relationship with God, but none the less a created being.
As far as I can discern from the words of the early church fathers, they did not consider martyrdom in and of itself a proof of one's belief but a proof that one possessed conviction in his belief. If you truly believe in something as the ultimate truth, you must be willing to die for it. This death, however, would not prove this purported truth to be absolutely true.
Whether or not the Apostles willingly died, on the other hand, may be a mystery.

reddish

So, you will stop using this argument yourself then, I presume?

Peace :love: :love: :love:

Orthodox_Freethinker

Yes, of course.

reddish

Just that I understand you properly: does that mean that you have reversed positions compared to, e.g., this post of yours?

Just checking.

Orthodox_Freethinker

I would say that it is absurd to think that the Apostles would willingly die for a corpse. The best evidence shows that the reason why they died was their testimony of Christ's resurrection. This is, however, not the only possibility.

FFT

I would say that it is absurd that a person would willingly die to be taken up into a spaceship hiding in an asteroid.



Oops.

reddish

I cannot see how this doesn't contradict your post #1 in this thread. But perhaps it's just me.

Orthodox_Freethinker

While the best evidence shows that the Apostles willingly died for their witness to the resurrection of Christ, none of this evidence equates to proof.

Dargo

Joseph Smith founder of the Latter Day Saints was killed by an angry mob in the 1840's. Would he have willing died for a lie? Even the contemporary non-Mormon accounts of his death admit that he never recanted his claim to being a prophet even when faced with death.

There are no non-Christian accounts of early Christian history and even the Christian accounts were written long after the events in question. Certainly, some early Christians died for their faith, but there is no objective evidence that any Christian martyrs had actually known Jesus.

Asha'man

Would you please describe this 'best' evidence that indicates how and why any of the Apostles died?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no such documentation available, or it is considered highly unreliable.