Freethought & Rationalism Archive

storytime · 07-10-2008, 07:17 AM

In the book of Revelation John has seen the Temple of God measured by an angel - "that is a man", measured by Jesus in his ideal kingdom. The measurement consist of a foursquare structured building, not of stone or wood, but measured in 144,000 Jews, represented in 12 tribal names as gates to that city Temple. This city is sealed. The gates are open and never closed, and Israeli people can go in and out at will. But those judged as adulterers, murderers, liars, fornicators, and those that fear, are forbidden to be part of that city Temple. Iow, the Jewish sinners against God cannot enter into that place, that identity, and that name. They are denied identity as Israel. And, that name is Israel, the kingdom of God, from the way I'm reading it.

Christians[Gentiles] have imposed themselves into this measured city of God as the "great multitude", but "the nations" spoken of are indicative of tribes, not the other nations of the world, and rules of entrance remain the same as required in OT protocol.

My question is how did this story with its obvious Jewish rectoric in cursings and blessings obtain validity with the first church fathers? Or was it later added to the books of church leaders and their thinking no critique of its visionary episode would ever be a problem?

Clivedurdle · 07-10-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Umberto Eco writes in Baudolino:

in the Acts of the Apostles it says that God from one man devised our humankind to inhabit the entire face of the earth, its face - not the other side, which doesn't exist.

"I don't know if you have ever studied the measurements of the Temple, well don't, because it is enough to drive you crazy. In Kings it says... In chronicles it says...

The problem however arises when you read the vision of Ezekiel. Not one measurement holds up, and so a number of pious men have admitted that Ezekiel had indeed had a vision, which is a bit like saying he had drunk too much and was seeing double. Nothing wrong with that , poor Ezekiel (he also had a right to his fun), but then Richard of St Victoire reasoned as follows: if everything, every number, every straw in the Bible has a spiritual meaning, we must clearly understand what it says literally, because it is one thing to say , for the spiritual meaning, that something is three long and another's length is nine, since these two numbers have different mystical meanings.

"The most alert commentators have not succeeded in establishing the exact structure of the Temple. You Christians do not understand that the sacred text is born from a Voice. The Lord, haqadoch baruch hu, that the holy one, may his name always be blessed , when he speaks to his prophets, allows them to hear sounds, but does not show figures, as you people do, with your illuminated pages. The voice surely provokes images in the heart of the prophet, but these images are not immobile; they liquefy, change shape according to the melody of that voice, and if you want to reduce to images the voice of the Lord, blessed always be his name, you freeze that voice, as if it were fresh water turning to ice that no longer quenches thirst, but numbs the limbs in the chill of death,"

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=165153

storytime · 07-11-2008, 02:38 PM

Thanks, but I'm afraid your quote isn't of any help.

Who decided to include the book of Revelation as part of the bible story's?

The exact structure of the Temple not established by the most alert commentators?

Well, I solved the problem for them, didn't I?

Toto · 07-11-2008, 03:49 PM

Revelation has been controversial from the beginning. Many Christians did reject it from their canon.

I'm not clear what your question is, exactly.

storytime · 07-11-2008, 04:10 PM

Toto,

If many Christians rejected it, then who included it? Catholics or Protestants? Or beforehand from Jewish, maybe rabbical sources?

Toto · 07-11-2008, 05:42 PM

Some Christians did accept it. But most of them make a big deal about interpreting it allegorically.

andrewcriddle · 07-11-2008, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Toto,

If many Christians rejected it, then who included it? Catholics or Protestants? Or beforehand from Jewish, maybe rabbical sources?

Revelation was boadly accepted among Latin speaking Western Christians it had a much more difficult time among Eastern Christians (Greek Syriac etc).

Revelation IIUC is not part of the lectionary readings (the passages appointed to be read in church on specific days of the year) in the Greek Orthodox church.

Andrew Criddle

07-10-2008, 07:17 AM	#1
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Temple Measured In the book of Revelation John has seen the Temple of God measured by an angel - "that is a man", measured by Jesus in his ideal kingdom. The measurement consist of a foursquare structured building, not of stone or wood, but measured in 144,000 Jews, represented in 12 tribal names as gates to that city Temple. This city is sealed. The gates are open and never closed, and Israeli people can go in and out at will. But those judged as adulterers, murderers, liars, fornicators, and those that fear, are forbidden to be part of that city Temple. Iow, the Jewish sinners against God cannot enter into that place, that identity, and that name. They are denied identity as Israel. And, that name is Israel, the kingdom of God, from the way I'm reading it. Christians[Gentiles] have imposed themselves into this measured city of God as the "great multitude", but "the nations" spoken of are indicative of tribes, not the other nations of the world, and rules of entrance remain the same as required in OT protocol. My question is how did this story with its obvious Jewish rectoric in cursings and blessings obtain validity with the first church fathers? Or was it later added to the books of church leaders and their thinking no critique of its visionary episode would ever be a problem?

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07-11-2008, 02:38 PM	#3
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Thanks, but I'm afraid your quote isn't of any help. Who decided to include the book of Revelation as part of the bible story's? The exact structure of the Temple not established by the most alert commentators? Well, I solved the problem for them, didn't I?

07-11-2008, 03:49 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Revelation has been controversial from the beginning. Many Christians did reject it from their canon. I'm not clear what your question is, exactly.

07-11-2008, 04:10 PM	#5
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Toto, If many Christians rejected it, then who included it? Catholics or Protestants? Or beforehand from Jewish, maybe rabbical sources?

07-11-2008, 05:42 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Some Christians did accept it. But most of them make a big deal about interpreting it allegorically.

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