Freethought & Rationalism Archive

makotech222 · 10-14-2007, 01:15 PM

Hi everyone. its my first post here on iidb. i'm kind of searching for a new religion right now. i use to be catholic(i'm sort of leaning towards deism or agnostic). i have a lot of reasons for leaving, but in my thoughts i came upon this.

Say that you are applying for a job. the chances look grim however. so you pray to god for the job. however, god would have to change the way the employer is thinking so that he would pick you. this however contradicts free will. Therefore, praying for anything has absolutely NO VALUE because god can do nothing for you. God is supposedly infallible therefore he cannot break his own laws.

So anyways i haven't thought too far onto this, but i would like to hear what other people with more knowledge have to say. thanks everyone

Pragmatista · 10-14-2007, 04:04 PM

While waiting for this to get bumped into another forum... if you have abandoned Catholicism, why do you need theological free will?

Anyway, God just needs to be more clever. He could have the competing job candidate get run over by a bus.

Toto · 10-14-2007, 04:12 PM

Hmm... How about philosophy?

Simen · 10-14-2007, 04:21 PM

God can do whatever he wishes. Even if he imposed laws on himself, such as "I will not change anyone's minds about anything" (I do hope it's not the biblical god you're talking about, since he does that) he could, as has been pointed out, manipulate circumstances such that the employer would be compelled to choose you, even if his choice was his alone.

I agree that prayer is pretty useless, but that's not because of any attribute of God's, but rather his total lack of attributes

jules? · 10-14-2007, 04:22 PM

oh wow! thats just so spooky

i am going for my dream job on tuesday and as much as i really wish [pray, perform magik, promise i wont wank again(although who would i make that promise to?)]I could get it I don't think it will make much difference. So instead I am doing plenty of work researching the business, doing background research and polishing up my powerpoint presentation.

If god doesn't grant your pray I hear it is because you need to learn a lesson.
If I don't get this job then I have to try harder to make my dreams come true. It seems we are all in the same boat.

God doesn't really beleive in free will anyway because if you truely act freely and he aint pleased then you get fried. Not really free will:devil1:

enjoy your journey.

makotech222 · 10-14-2007, 05:21 PM

well see, then he would need to affect the free will of the bus driver, now wouldnt he?

the paradox is that he is infinite and perfect, as are his laws. so by breaking his laws, they are no longer perfect? which means he is no longer perfect?

Pragmatista · 10-14-2007, 05:29 PM

Nah, the bus driver was trying to kill someone anyway, and it was just a case of mistaken identity.

But in any event, why do you care about theological free will? To me it just seems like an ad hoc solution to the problem of evil, and a weak one at that.

makotech222 · 10-14-2007, 07:59 PM

lmao then god wouldnt have had anything to do with it? which makes the prayer useless anyways.
i was just wondering about it, because thats just how i am.

J842P · 10-14-2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makotech222

Hi everyone. its my first post here on iidb. i'm kind of searching for a new religion right now. i use to be catholic(i'm sort of leaning towards deism or agnostic). i have a lot of reasons for leaving, but in my thoughts i came upon this.

Say that you are applying for a job. the chances look grim however. so you pray to god for the job. however, god would have to change the way the employer is thinking so that he would pick you. this however contradicts free will. Therefore, praying for anything has absolutely NO VALUE because god can do nothing for you. God is supposedly infallible therefore he cannot break his own laws.

So anyways i haven't thought too far onto this, but i would like to hear what other people with more knowledge have to say. thanks everyone

You are assuming you have free will. Is that a valid assumption?

makotech222 · 10-15-2007, 07:25 AM

yes well im just saying so because thats whats in the bible, correct?

10-14-2007, 01:15 PM	#1
makotech222 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 24	Free Will Paradox? Hi everyone. its my first post here on iidb. i'm kind of searching for a new religion right now. i use to be catholic(i'm sort of leaning towards deism or agnostic). i have a lot of reasons for leaving, but in my thoughts i came upon this. Say that you are applying for a job. the chances look grim however. so you pray to god for the job. however, god would have to change the way the employer is thinking so that he would pick you. this however contradicts free will. Therefore, praying for anything has absolutely NO VALUE because god can do nothing for you. God is supposedly infallible therefore he cannot break his own laws. So anyways i haven't thought too far onto this, but i would like to hear what other people with more knowledge have to say. thanks everyone

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10-14-2007, 04:04 PM	#2
Pragmatista Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Posts: 622	While waiting for this to get bumped into another forum... if you have abandoned Catholicism, why do you need theological free will? Anyway, God just needs to be more clever. He could have the competing job candidate get run over by a bus.

10-14-2007, 04:12 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Hmm... How about philosophy?

10-14-2007, 04:21 PM	#4
Simen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Norway Posts: 2,382	God can do whatever he wishes. Even if he imposed laws on himself, such as "I will not change anyone's minds about anything" (I do hope it's not the biblical god you're talking about, since he does that) he could, as has been pointed out, manipulate circumstances such that the employer would be compelled to choose you, even if his choice was his alone. I agree that prayer is pretty useless, but that's not because of any attribute of God's, but rather his total lack of attributes

10-14-2007, 04:22 PM	#5
jules? Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: mind the time rift, cardiff, wales Posts: 645	oh wow! thats just so spooky i am going for my dream job on tuesday and as much as i really wish [pray, perform magik, promise i wont wank again(although who would i make that promise to?)]I could get it I don't think it will make much difference. So instead I am doing plenty of work researching the business, doing background research and polishing up my powerpoint presentation. If god doesn't grant your pray I hear it is because you need to learn a lesson. If I don't get this job then I have to try harder to make my dreams come true. It seems we are all in the same boat. God doesn't really beleive in free will anyway because if you truely act freely and he aint pleased then you get fried. Not really free will:devil1: enjoy your journey.

10-14-2007, 05:21 PM	#6
makotech222 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 24	well see, then he would need to affect the free will of the bus driver, now wouldnt he? the paradox is that he is infinite and perfect, as are his laws. so by breaking his laws, they are no longer perfect? which means he is no longer perfect?

10-14-2007, 05:29 PM	#7
Pragmatista Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Posts: 622	Nah, the bus driver was trying to kill someone anyway, and it was just a case of mistaken identity. But in any event, why do you care about theological free will? To me it just seems like an ad hoc solution to the problem of evil, and a weak one at that.

10-14-2007, 07:59 PM	#8
makotech222 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 24	lmao then god wouldnt have had anything to do with it? which makes the prayer useless anyways. i was just wondering about it, because thats just how i am.

10-15-2007, 07:25 AM	#10
makotech222 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 24	yes well im just saying so because thats whats in the bible, correct?

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