andrewcriddle

We know from Suetonius' Claudius that Felix married three queens/princesses.

There are various possibilities.

For example

a/ Felix was married to Drusilla 1/ (the descendant of Cleopatra) when appointed by Claudius as governor. On arrival in Judea he became infatuated with Drusilla 2/ (the descendant of Herod) divorced Drusilla 1/ and seduced and married Drusilla 2/.

b/ Our text of Josephus is radically confused.

c/ Tacitus has confused together the earlier Cleopatran wife of Felix (who was not called Drusilla) with the later Herodian wife of Felix (who was called Drusilla).

d/ The original text of Tacitus did not name the Cleopatran wife of Felix i.e. Drusilla in Tacitus is a scribal gloss based on a misunderstanding of Acts.

etc.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller

Since the story in Josephus is so incredible and Acts betrays signs that the author used Josephus the most likely explanation is that Acts is repeating a 'mistake' or misrepresentation of fact in the original manuscript. Drusilla is a rare name. The stories are related (negative portraits of Felix). But most important is the fact that the Josephus narrative is downright silly. Why should anyone take serious a silly story about magic and seduction which bear such an uncanny resemblance to other stupid stories of this sort in the Church Fathers?

Marcus the Magician the student of Simon and his 'magical seduction' of various noble women come immediately to mind (AH 1.13, 14). The question comes down to whether the similarities with the Patristic magical interest (with familiar names and patterns of lust, seduction etc) are enough to discount the material in Josephus. I think the parallels are that strong. This is a silly story where we happen to have the source surviving down to us. We aren't always that lucky.

On a unrelated note I was watching coverage about Joe Paterno at Penn State (the famous coach who allowed sex abuse with children to go on in his department) and the TV commentators were wondering why he allowed this to go on under his nose. My take was that things like this must happen happen all the time and people figure it will just 'blow over.' That explains the complacency. The question is how many other times did it happen and he didn't report it. The same applies here.

The third wife could have been anyone. That's not an argument against this proposition.

Duke Leto

Sentence 1 and sentence 2 are saying the opposite of each other.

You still haven't explained why we should think this one account, even if it is apocryphal, "proves" that Josephus didn't write Josephus. Herodotus put a lot of apocryphal stories in his history and nobody thinks that a 4th or 3rd century BCE author pretending to be Herodotus wrote his works.

What is the reason someone would forge the Antiquities and the Jewish Wars? You obviously think that Christian authors were trying to distort Jewish history in a way you find objectionable, and you are not explaining why they would do such a thing without adding many more Gospel details than are present in Josephus, or what revisionist Jewish history you are trying to promote.

It looks a lot like you have some pre-existing prejudice against Josephus' account that you aren't articulating and are just going through the text cherry picking things that look inaccurate to "prove" that it's wrong.

You list your religion as "Mystical Judaism" in your profile. Do you believe in the Mosaic authorship of the Torah? If I went down a host of reasons why it is largely a forgery from the time of Josiah (which it is), would you endure that patiently?

Duke Leto

Not in this context!

Drusilla of Mauretania's father was a cousin of Caligula and it would be perfectly natural to name his daughter in honor of Caligula's sister Julia Drusilla, or more likely Livia Drusilla, who was Augustus' wife and Tiberius' mother. Likewise Herod Agrippa was born in Rome, named after Agrippa and was brought up in the same circle as the Imperial family, being a friend of Germanicus, Drusus and Claudius and was therefore also close to Caligula. Again, perfectly natural for him to name his daughter after the emperor's sister.

Both women were born in 38 CE about the time of Caligula's death, while Julia Drusilla was still being publicly revered as a goddess with a priesthood. Another excellent reason to butter up a notoriously fickle emperor by naming your daughters after his favorite sister.

stephan huller

Im just saying there is no evidence for Drusilla the Jewish princess and there weren't that many Drusillas to get confused with

maryhelena

Well, it's about time - that someone brings this up! Stephan does have a reason that he is not articulating - a reason that requires him to question the Josephan account of Agrippa I.

Stephan, contrary to the existence of the Herodian coins for both Agrippa I and Agrippa II, does not accept the Josephan account of these two kings. For Stephan, there was only one King Agrippa. Consequently, when Josephus writes that Agrippa I had a daughter by the name of Drusilla, Stephan has to question the historicity of this daughter - and also, of course, the Josephan reference to her marriage to Felix.


So, whatever the truth of the Josephan story re a marriage between a daughter of Agrippa I with Felix (and for myself I would doubt this marriage....) it is not Drusilla that is Stephan' main focus - that focus is Agrippa I.

Why? Well, Stephan has set out his ideas in his book 'The Real Messiah' - and the real Messiah is Agrippa - an Agrippa that is alive at the fall of Jerusalem - in other words, Agrippa II. But that's not Agrippa II for Stephan - it's just King Agrippa. Therefore, the Josephan history of the earlier Agrippa I and his daughter Drusilla must be jettisoned..

The Real Messiah (or via: amazon.co.uk) Stephan Huller

Is there another possible explanation re the Josephan account of Drusilla and Felix?

I think so. Josephus, as I've posted many times, and referenced two scholarly studies, is a prophetic historian. What that can mean is that the Josephan writer is not only interpreting Jewish history through a prophetic lens - he is also using that interpreting in his historical writing. Hence a mixture of history and historical interpretations - history alongside pseudo-history.

Drusilla and Felix? Most likely this story is a replay of a much earlier Josephan historical account. The Roman appointed King, Herod the Great was married to Doris. After the siege of Jerusalem, when Herod ruled Judea, he divorced Doris to marry the Jewish princess, Mariamne. Mariamne was later executed (?) and Herod married another Mariamne. Thus, Mariamne I and Mariamne II.

Also of interest with the name Drusilla, is that the Drusilla that was married to Felix was a descendant of Cleopatra and Marc Antony. Marc Antony being the Roman who executed the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus, in 37 b.c. Herod the Great sending Antigonus to Marc Antony.

And what time slot does Josephus place this supposed marriage of a Jewish Drusilla to Felix? Felix was in Judea between 52 - 58 c.e. If this Josephan marriage between Drusilla and Felix took place around this time period - then we are dealing with a 100 year time slot between the Josephan story of Drusilla and Felix and the marriage of Herod the Great to Mariamne I. (Drusilla and her son - conveniently dying later at Vesuvius in 79 c.e.)

While the Josephan story about a marriage of Drusilla and Felix is indeed questionable - this Josephan story does not, in any way, bring into question the historical existence of Agrippa I.

------------

footnote: That Acts has a Jewish Drusilla married to Felix - that supports the Josephan reconstruction of Hasmonean and Herodian history - indicating close cooperation between the writer of Acts and the Josephan writer.

Duke Leto

JP Holding and I agree on something! That may be a first. What a load of malarcky. And the guy needs to shill his own ideas on FRDB instead of having fanboys do it for him? That's pretty desperate.

It's pretty impressive that most of the 5-star reviews on Amazon are from people who have only written one review.

I'm going to email Robert M. Price to clarify that his 5-star review was actually written by him and not a forgery. If that's the case than the OP's moral bankruptcy will be pretty astounding.

stephan huller

Why does my motivation here have anything thing to do with this book? i didn't mention this. i have been dealing with the likelihood of two princess named Drusilla being married to the same man within the span of 8 years.

stephan huller

One of the most annoying things about the format of this forum is that everything comes down to side issues. I almost never ever bring up my theory about Agrippa at this forum. I have made over 5000 posts in two years. The thing I get called out for is talking too much about Marcion. If you want to argue that it is probable that it is likely that Felix hired Simon Magus to cast a spell in order to get one Drusilla to fall in love with him while he was married to another. Be my guest - argue that point

Duke Leto

Are you denying that it's your book?

Since the book has multiple 5-star reviews from people who never reviewed another thing ever again, it's pretty obvious that either you or your publisher are not above falsifying good press for your book.

You stated right in the title of your thread that your intention was to prove the fraudulence of Josephus as a historical source. You allege that the two Drusillas was just the FIRST reason for this absurd scenario.

Nobody comes up with such a left field hypothesis if they don't have some axe to grind. Yours is out in the open. Deal with it.