ggazoo

I seen many threads about the Resurrection, and wanted to table something I found on konig.org

The site itself can be a little preachy, but here's the case that they made for the Resurrection:

In John chapter 20, Mary Magdalene finds the stone removed from the tomb. She then tells Peter and John that the Lord’s body is missing from the tomb. Peter and John run to the tomb. John gets there first, looks in and sees the linen cloth lying there, but does not go in. Then Peter arrives and goes inside. He also noticed the cloth lying there, while the swath that covered Jesus' head was rolled up into a bundle and lying to the side. Then John went in too, and saw, and believed (that He had risen) for until then they hadn't realized, that the scriptures said He would come to life again.

Looking into the empty tomb and seeing linen cloth lying on the slab could mean anything. Did somebody cut the wrap off and remove the body? And if someone did remove the body, why would they bother to take the time to remove the wrap? The question is, what did John see that immediately told him that Christ had risen?

For that answer we go to John 19:38-42. Joseph of Arimathea got permission to take the body of Jesus down from the cross, and lay Him in a new unused tomb. Together with Nicodemus, both secret disciples of Christ, they brought Jesus to the tomb along with 100 pounds of embalming ointment made from myrrh and aloes. The two men wrapped Jesus' body in a long linen cloth saturated with the embalming ointment, as it was the Jewish custom of burial. They wrapped each limb separately, but not the head, as the Jewish custom is not to wrap the head (as is the Egyptian custom), but to lay a swath of cloth over the head. This mixture of myrrh and aloes dries into a shellac like substance, and the linen wrap becomes stiff. After three days in the tomb, the 100 pounds of embalming ointment hardened the linen wrap around Jesus' body.

When John looked into the tomb and saw this hardened linen wrap, it was not cut up in pieces or unraveled. It would be impossible to unravel in its hardened state, without breaking. What he saw was a cocoon of linen, shaped like a mans body, with nothing inside. Christ had risen in spirit form right through the hardened linen bandages, and left the bandages intact in the shape of His earthly body, with the head cloth rolled up in a bundle.

You can imagine the amazement of Peter and John seeing hardened strips of linen wrap shaped like Jesus' body, completely intact, with nothing inside. They knew the only way the body could escape the wrap would be in spirit form. This was proof in their eyes that Christ had risen, and prompted John to write "Then I went in too, and saw, and believed. For until then we hadn't realized that the scriptures said He would come to life again!" (John 20:8-9)

Note: If Peter and John had seen the linen wrap cut up in pieces, torn, broken, damaged, or in any state other than a cocoon like undamaged state, than the possibility would exist, that someone cut and tore the wrap and stole the body. But the fact they believed immediately that He had risen, tells us the condition of the wrap was intact, and is another proof of the resurrection.

I know that "proof" is a strong word around here, but I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this. Given the historical accuracy in this account of how people were buried and laid to rest, could you concur that this theory could at least be possible?

John Kesler

Look at Luke 23:50-56a:

Notice, first, that the women who eventually went to Jesus' tomb on Easter morning, "prepared spices and ointments" to put on Jesus' body (24:1), which seems like a strange thing to do if they had just witnessed Joseph and Nicodemus already apply 100 pounds of spices to the body as John's account claims! But leaving aside this inconsistency, if, as your source claims, Peter and John, upon entering the tomb, saw "strips of linen wrap shaped like Jesus' body, completely intact," and this is what immediately convinced them that Jesus had been resurrected, why didn't the women have the same reaction when they entered the tomb?

Note that the women "were perplexed," which seems like a strange reaction, if, as your source states, there was a "cocoon of linen, shaped like a mans [sic] body, with nothing inside," which had been so immediately convincing to Peter and John. Further, why didn't the "two men in dazzling clothes" point out this "cacoon of linen" if it was simply a case of the women's failure to notice it? Finally, your source claims that, "Christ had risen in spirit form right through the hardened linen bandages, and left the bandages intact in the shape of His earthly body, with the head cloth rolled up in a bundle." That Jesus' resurrection was bodily rather than "in spirit form" is something that Luke and John make explicit:

Diogenes the Cynic

This whole argument assumes that John's account is not fiction. It's circular.

Steven Carr

I wonder why the disciples decided to go back to fishing after seeing such proofs of a miracle.

Of course, there is no evidence produced for Peter visting the tomb and seeing these strips of cloth.

neilgodfrey

So it was not the empty tomb that was the proof but the linen cocoon? Bet the author who proposed the empty tomb as the finale to his story as "proof" would kick himself if he knew that he could have added that bit to make his tale "extra strong". It's just a story. The author of Acts should be kicking himself too for not having Peter and Paul point it out in their sermons -- maybe then he could have doubled the numbers of people he said were converted too. They could even have taken the cocoon around to all their sermon rallies and held it up as proof!

And maybe the authors could have simplified the whole story by having Jesus say: Look, I know you are just a bunch of illiterate fishermen and you can't read the Scriptures, so forget about anything the Scriptures say, just take a look at that linen cocoon and use your heads! That's proof right there! Now go out and convert the world! And as for you, Thomas, get your fingers out of my holes and just go and feel that cocoon!

I feel silly even just saying it but people don't rise from the dead. So why do we even need to take seriously anything in a 2000 year old story that says a couple did? But people do write stories about all sorts of weird things and people also even believe in many of the weirdest of these things -- even sometimes to the point of dying over their ignorance and superstitions. I know, coz I'm one of them. I was prepared to give my life and even came to the brink of letting my infant son die all coz I once believed people rose from the dead. I even did a post grad course on indoctrination and propaganda at a top level university while believing it. People are really incredible.

Okay, so how did Christianity start if there was no resurrection? Well, Acts makes it pretty clear that Christianity did not start because of the resurrection story alone. It had to be supplemented with miracles of tongues and fire on people's heads that didn't burn them, with a whole raft of other miracles by the apostles after that, with Paul proving his credentials by his own miracles. So I guess God judges us today by a higher standard coz we don't need miracles to prove anything? Or maybe people just like to believe in myths of golden ages when gods walked the earth and their people were so holy they had super powers. For some reason that's reassuring to many people today.

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

JoeWallack

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Matthew_28

1 Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, whom Jesus surnamed Josephine, to see the sepulchre.

2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it.

3 His appearance was as lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

4 and for fear of him the watchers did quake, and became as dead men.

5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye; for I know that ye seek Jesus, who hath been crucified.

6 He is not here; for he is risen, even as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples, He is risen from the dead; and lo, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

8 And they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring his disciples word.

9 And behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and took hold of his feet, and worshipped him.

10 Then saith Jesus unto them, Fear not: go tell my brethren that they depart into Galilee, and there shall they see me

11 And saith Josephine, "the angel already told us that".

12 And saith Jesus, "he did?" (Byzantine gives "he did").

13 And saith Josephine "yea, we heard it from an angel. Who told you?"

14 And saith Jesus "Mark 16:7" (Byzantine omits "16:7").

15 And saith Josephine "If you knew that the angel already told us you were going to Galilee than why did you need to tell us again?"

16 And saith Jesus "umm, because Simon didn't say?" (Byzantine gives "Ahh, because Simon didn't say")



Josephine

Jesus. Name. The fleshy part of the trinity.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Splarnst

Someone wrote something down. Hmm, not very convincing.

Doug Shaver

Having read many novels that combine a great amount of historical accuracy with a great amount of pure fiction, no, I don't concur.

aa5874

There cannot be any proof of a 'resurresction'. A 'resurrection' is a supernatural event. If a supposed buried body is not at its burial place, there are several scenarios, either the wrong burial site or the body was never placed there.

The biblical account of the burial of Jesus is totally flawed, and if the account written in Matthew is read, it would be clear that if a dead body was placed in a tomb it would have been removed before the tomb was sealed and under guard by the soldiers.

It has been found after millions death throught the world that no-one have ever lived and predicted that they would come back to life after being dead and have actually come back to life.

In any event, based on the scriptual texts, Jesus the Christ could have been a magician and could have easily appeared to have been 'resurrected', barring that scenario, the Gospel stories are mere fairy tales.

spin

Did Napoleon know just how much she'd been around?


pnis