show_no_mercy

According to the wiki article on the historicity of Jesus, someone wrote that Romans 15:8 says that Jesus was a minister to the Jews. I looked at multiple translations of this passage and they all seem to be saying different things.

Some say "was a minister", some say "will be a minister", etc. Some say "was a servant", etc. The word Paul used is apparently διακονον which is the same word he used to describe Timothy in 1 Thessalonians 3:2. Of course, most translations have this passage say "servant" or "worker" in 1 Thess 3:2 except for the KJV(s) which has "minister". According to my Greek dictionary, διακονος means "servant" but in modern lexical use means "deacon". It seems to come from the koine Greek verb "to serve" which is διακονέω (according to Wikipedia, it comes from the saying "through the dust" which is the dust kicked up by a servant while waiting on people).

I'm wondering what Paul meant when he basically said that Jesus was, literally, a "deacon" for the Jews. And when specifically "ministry" meant some sort of teaching profession. Is Paul saying that Jesus had (or will have) a "ministry" for the Jews?

Toto

We had a long thread on the meaning of deacon/deaconess a few months ago:

Meaning of deaconesses in Pliny

A deacon was a minister in the sense of ministering to people, being a help.

But I don't see any reason to read Rom 15:8 as saying clearly that Jesus had a real life ministry among the Jews.

Doug Shaver

Some historicists will go to great lengths to find references in Paul to an earthly Jesus.

The fact that it takes such an effort to find those references ought to be saying something.

DCHindley

The basic meaning of the word is indeed DIAKONEW "to wait on, serve; to furnish, supply." It is from DIAKONOS meaning a "servent, waiting man, a messenger; a minister of a church, esp. a deacon" According to the lexicon (L&S), the derivation is uncertain. DIAKONIA means "service, business; attendance on a duty; the office of a deacon."

It is the Jehovas' Witnesses who think the word is derived from the root word KONIS "dust; the dust of ashes, ashes; the powder with which wrestlers were sprinkled after being oiled." The verb derived from it is KONIW "to make dusty, cover, fill with dust; to sprinkle or cover as with dust; to raise dust, make haste, speed." This may be right.

Another root could be KONNOS "the beard; the presence of an insignificant person." Romans went about clean shaven, for the most part, and perhaps slaves were often Asiatics or Greeks who wore beards. Maybe the idea is the stubble of a beard, as in a youth or young man.

DCH

Casper

Would this necessarily really mean anything? Consider the metaphor "Lamb of God". We certainly don't have any reasson to belive that Jesus appeared in public as a glowing lamb, so how far do you take the metaphor?

A "servant of the lord" probably was not intended to mean that one actually turned down the bedsheets and emptied the privy pot, right?

show_no_mercy

Paul says "servant of God" in 1 Thess 3:2 describing Timothy. Paul says "servant of the Jews (circumcised)" in Romans 15:8 describing Jesus.

I'm wondering what Paul meant when he said that Jesus was (or "will be" according to some translations) a servant of the Jews.

Steven Carr

'I'm wondering what Paul meant when he basically said that Jesus was, literally, a "deacon" for the Jews.'

Where is the word which is literally 'Jews' in Romans 15:8?

And what does a servant for the truth of God actually mean? What is its 'literal' meaning?

show_no_mercy

Paul says "circumcised". I'm guessing the only community of people in the Roman empire in the 1st century who circumcised themselves were Jews.

Steven Carr

So this community could be referred to as 'the circumcision' and people would know that what was meant was living, breathing Jewish men and women, collectively known in the first century world as 'the circumcision'?

Are Jews referred to anywhere else as 'the circumcision'?

And what is a servant for the truth of God?

The whole passage is mysteriously written, as are all references to Jesus in an 'earthly' sense.

DCHindley

Well, it is a infinitive perfect passive verb, a form of GIGONAI "become, be; happen, take place, arise; come into being, be born or created; be done (of things), become something (of persons)."

The function of the Greek perfect tense has no direct equivalent in English grammar. It is the Greek tense indicating completed action. It indicates a completed action with a resulting state of being that takes the primary emphasis. There are three ideas involved: an action in progress, its coming to a point of culmination, and then existing in a completed result.

So, the verb would mean "to have become" and as an infinitive "becoming". The DIAKONOS Christ "became" probably conveys the idea of expediting the completion of "promises of the fathers" through his circumcised state.

In my evil and clearly wrong way of thinking, the phrase "For I am saying Christ became an expediter of circumcision, according to the truth of God" was added by my imaginary redactor to change a phrase that originally said "On account of this [i.e., the glorification of the God and father ... of us] be you receiving toward selves one another ... into glory of the God, in order to stabilize the promises of the fathers, so that the nations (gentiles) glorify the God."

But that's just ol' me.

DCH