Duvduv

GMark never has Jesus refer to God as "my Father" and by contrast GJohn has him refer to God that way dozens of times. On one occasion GMark has him refer to "your father in heaven".

GMatt has him call God "my father" eight times, and "my father in heaven" seven times.

By contrast, GLuke never has Jesus call God "my father in heaven" and only uses the term "my father" about four times.

Mary is identified as his mother once in GMark in chapter 6 with his aphorism about his unnamed mother (no father) and brothers earlier on in chapter 3. So the greatness of a virgin birth does not exist in either GMark or GJohn, and even in GMatt and GLuke outside of the nativity story, Mary never has any special attention given to her as having been the mother of the miraculously born child, when traveling to Egypt or anything else.

Outside of the nativity story JOSEPH is always identified as the father of Jesus and part of a couple with Mary, where as in GJohn Jesus is assumed as the son of Joseph. Interestingly enough, in GLuke she is referred to merely as "mother" outside of the nativity story and presentation at the temple.

In GMatt she is not seen as Mary after the nativity except as identified as his mother in chapter 13 corresponding to GMark 6, and her greatness is ignored.

What seems to emerge from this is that an original story about the Jesus figure had him as a man born to human parents called Mary and Joseph, or at least an unnamed mother and Joseph in GJohn with the messianic birth identification and virgin birth added on later.

The extensive use of "my father" in GJohn seems to allude to a gnostic demiurge notion seting up Jesus and his Father against the Jews and their Law, while at the same time of course cutting and pasting the other elements into the story. What is also interesting is that after GJohn, it is GMatt where the term "my father" is used most frequently, the more Jewishly flavored of the gospels, which also might suggest a demiurge notion made Jewish without the gnostic inferences.

sotto voce

'A voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."' Mk 1:11 NIV

'"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." Mk 14:36 NIV

Duvduv

Yes, Sotto Voce, I know. I was simply referring to the occurrence of the expression "My father."

sotto voce

But surely this affects your hypothesis.

Duvduv

There must be something particularly significant to him referring to God as HIS father, thereby excluding everyone else from being the children of god. In Judaism this is unheard of and sounds peculiar even in Matthew. The usual term would simply be OUR Father. What theology would make the universal god only the God of the Messiah or Savior? Who is the heavenly father of everyone else?

sotto voce

'"When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father."' Mt 6:6 NIV

'"When you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."' Mk 11:25 NIV

'"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."' Lk 6:36 NIV

'"Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father." Jn 20:17 NIV

Thundril

None of which can be read as Jesus claiming a unique Father/Son relationship withGod.. I still can't see anywhere in the NT where he makes such a claim.

aa5874

First of all the author of gMark nowhere mentioned that his Jesus character had a father called Joseph and secondly, the author did NOT state that Mary was the mother of Jesus--the author ASKED Questions. See Mark 6.3

Now, the Markan Jesus was the Son of God.

Mark 3:11 KJVMark 5:7 KJVMark 13:32 KJVMark 14 Mark 15:39 KJV The Markan Jesus was the Son of God and the author MADE CERTAIN not to mention anywhere at all that Jesus had a human father and never even mentioned that Mary had a husband called Joseph.

Ironically, the author of gMatthew may have thought the Markan Jesus was the Son of a Ghost because no human father was named in gMark.

And, the author of gLuke appears to have done an investigation which confirms the Ghost nativity story of Jesus --See Matthew 1 and Luke 1.

The authors of gMatthew and gLuke did PUBLICLY publish their stories of the Ghost conception and it was WIDELY accepted especially by the Romans in the 4th century.

It MAY have been a common syaing in antiquity that Jesus was Fathered by the Holy Ghost of God.

In any event, in gMark it is established that the Markan Jesus was the Son of God.

Duvduv

The issue is whether Jesus ' father is different from the father of everyone else. Otherwise, what's the meaning of "my father " instead of "our father"?
Unless again we are talking about a cut and paste job involving more than one writer other than GMark.
I see that the expressions of "your father" in the synoptics are in aphorisms/moralisms not as statements of fact.
In GJohn in chapter the authors clearly distinguishes the father of the Jews as the Devil, since if God were their father they wouldn't be who they are, etc.

Duvduv

So is the "my father" in the gospel DIFFERENT from the "your father" mentioned a couple of times, thereby suggesting a demiurge relationship of some kind even in GMatt??