Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xaxxat · 03-06-2008, 07:07 PM

[QUOTE=arnoldo;5195748]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Easy, Israel was destroyed in 70 AD and restored in 1948 AD. Get it?

No, I don't. What were the boundaries promised to Abraham by Yahweh?

Weasel out of that one...

arnoldo · 03-06-2008, 07:25 PM

[QUOTE=xaxxat;5195761]

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

No, I don't. What were the boundaries promised to Abraham by Yahweh?

Weasel out of that one...

Another failed prophecy?. . . . y-a-w-n

Johnny Skeptic · 03-06-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel was destroyed in 70 AD and restored in 1948 AD.

That is simply an example of a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Koran said that a destroyed Muslim temple would be rebuilt in Mecca, and the temple was rebuilt, Muslims could claim that that was a legitimate fulfillment of prophecy. How would you be able to successfully refute their claim?

Why does God predict the future?

Why did God make 100% disputable prophecies when he could easily have made 100% indisputable prophecies?

blastula · 03-06-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastula

How can you tell a self-fulfilled prophecy is not a true prophecy?

All that is takes to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true. If the Koran said that a Muslim temple would be rebuilt in Mecca, and a temple was rebuilt in Mecca, Christians would consider the to be a self-fulfilled prophecy, but why? It is up to Christians to reasonably prove that if Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants that the Partition of Palestine would not have happened anyway.

But so what? The prophecy may have been a prophecy of an event that would only be achieved by self-fulfillment. What you would call a non-self-fulfilled prophecy may also occur by means as natural as self-fulfilling actions. Unless you want to differentiate between prophecies that require miraculous actions and those that don't, then there is nothing invalid about a self-fulfilled prophecy. Self-fulfillment does not refute the authenticity of a prophecy. If it came true, it came true. What's harder to prove is that it was foretold by supernatural revelation or just mundane guessing.

spin · 03-06-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Rather than trying to change the subject and cover your ass, read the quote you originally gave from Jeremiah which you claimed was a prophecy and get over the denial.

This is plain. Read Jeremiah 30. Don't change the subject onto other so-called prophecies. Running away won't help you deal with your problems. You know you can't call Judah Israel. All you are doing is tacitly admitting the failure of the prophecy by changing the subject. (Or are you trying to say that god changed his mind about the prophecy? God to sugarhitman: oops, I didn't really mean Israel. Read Joel instead.

)

<wave>

Oh poor me, I could have sworn that Judah was one of the twelve tribes of ISRAEL....the nation of Israel is restored just as foretold....get over it.

I asked you to read the text, yet you've ignored it yet again. He it is one more time:

"For behold, the days are coming says the Lord, that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah', says the Lord. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall posses it." Jeremiah 30.

Jeremiah's narrative context is after the fall of Israel but before the fall of Judah. Israel is clearly the northern kingdom. Judah is the southern kingdom. Two nations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

After the Babylonian captivity the nation of Israel (all tribes) made The City of David (Jerusalem) their capital,

"[A]ll tribes"? You made that up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

all Israel are now refered to as Jews, a name originally associated with Judah.....they are now one nation

How many non-Judahite Jews have you come across? I thought so: none. You made it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

....you loose. <wave>

"[L]oose" is how you play with the facts. "Lose" is what you do.

<wave>

spin

Johnny Skeptic · 03-06-2008, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

All that is takes to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true. If the Koran said that a Muslim temple would be rebuilt in Mecca, and a temple was rebuilt in Mecca, Christians would consider the to be a self-fulfilled prophecy, but why? It is up to Christians to reasonably prove that if Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants that the Partition of Palestine would not have happened anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastula

But so what? The prophecy may have been a prophecy of an event that would only be achieved by self-fulfillment. What you would call a non-self-fulfilled prophecy may also occur by means as natural as self-fulfilling actions. Unless you want to differentiate between prophecies that require miraculous actions and those that don't, then there is nothing invalid about a self-fulfilled prophecy. Self-fulfillment does not refute the authenticity of a prophecy. If it came true, it came true. What's harder to prove is that it was foretold by supernatural revelation or just mundane guessing.

What you said is basically what I thought that I said. Since you do not believe that, I am willing to go with what you said. Let's let arnoldo and sugarhitman as you said "prove is that it was foretold by supernatural revelation."

angelo · 03-07-2008, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

If God can predict the future, what does that prove other than that he can predict the future?

The problem arises because, first of all, there's no proof of any god, secondly, what prediction has this supposedly god made that has come to fruition?

angelo · 03-07-2008, 01:41 AM

Claiming the existence of Israel is proof of the biblical god is so much nonsense that really any comment is falling for the premise that this god controls the world and all our actions, which immediately asks the question of, whatever happened to free will?

xaxxat · 03-07-2008, 03:46 AM

[QUOTE=arnoldo;5195784]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Another failed prophecy?. . . . y-a-w-n

Try to be more original. Anyone can parrot...

Dogfish · 03-07-2008, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogfish

So archeology backs up the validity of the covanent?

It doesn't discredit it. There is plenty of archaelogical evidence that events,places, persons in the book of Genesis existed. Go to your local library and check out some books on ancient Jewish/Israeli history, it's like honey from the rock :angel:

:rolling:

In other words...no.

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03-07-2008, 01:41 AM	#1188
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	Claiming the existence of Israel is proof of the biblical god is so much nonsense that really any comment is falling for the premise that this god controls the world and all our actions, which immediately asks the question of, whatever happened to free will?

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