Roger Pearse

We would have to see the sources. I can tell you that none of the extant Roman calendars from Inscriptiones Italiae show anything for Dec. 25.

Julian the Apostate tells us in his Hymn to King Helios that the solstice is actually before this date, but this is the point at which people can see the date getting longer.

"Scriptor Syrus" is something I *do* know about, so I learn immediately that Hutton is copying someone else here, without checking it.

If you look at Mommsen's edition of the Chronography in Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, you find that he prints the calendar with notes in Latin. The notes on Dec. 25 mention a "scriptor syrus" and his comments. But "scriptor syrus" only means "the syrian writer". The writer is the unknown scholiast on Dionysius Bar Salibi. The latter lived in the 12th century, so this is a very late source indeed.

The idea that he lived in the 4th century comes from misreading a passage in Frazer, where he uses this stuff from Scriptor Syrus in a context that suggests(wrongly) but does not state that he is 4th century. I wonder if Hutton is the man who made this mistake (which I have seen online).

Not that I necessarily dismiss the testimony of the scholiast. But a gap of 8 centuries is a fair old while.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Vexen

Try factoring in Jeremiah 10:2-4:

"This is what the LORD says: Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter."
The Christian Bible, Jeremiah 10:2-4 (NIV)

"the nations" in the Bible normally means the (pagan) neighbours of the Jews; it is saying, don't decorate trees with silver and gold, like the pagans do, because their customs are worthless.

My own webpage on Christmas predictably cite Freke & Gandy, who do give frequent ancient references for much of their text on Christmas' pagan origins, and I have a page specific to the Virgin Birth & Christmas Story. But for now I just wanted to throw in the (now) anti-Christmas quote from Jeremiah.

rlogan

I cannot understand what point Roger is trying to make.

The solstice period, for lack of a better name - and indeed that is a pretty damned appropriate one - is a period of ubiquitous celebrations.

They predate Christianity. They arise independently on other continents. There are the most obvious logical reasons for them apart from religion, but also conflated with religion.

These celebrations have nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus. The "Christian" celebrations, in Roger's own version, do not arise for some centuries after the mythical Christian beginnings. Since there is no scriptural nor Church Father reference to any birth of Christ or Christian celebration in the earlier centuries, it simply cannot be asserted as such.

Whether it is "pre-empting" or "borrowing" is a distinction without a difference. This is the time people party, as sure as Polar Bears are hibernating. Regardless of who they are, it is invariably imbued with religious meaning wherever it occurs.

It is a silly question to ask if Christmas is a "pagan" celebration when Christians are the ones doing it, and they are worshipping their Christian myth at their celebration.

So what is the point of even asking whether there are celebrations by anyone else whatsoever at this time? As I see Roger's way of looking at it, the matter is tautological. Christians are doing it. Therefore it is a Christian celebration.

John Kesler

I would carefully research anything that Freke and Gandy claim rather than using them as a source. On another list three years ago, I documented an error that F & G made (ironically, concerning the birth of Jesus and an alleged pagan parallel), which to me indicated that they weren't very discriminating in their use of sources.

mountainman

To be explicit, there is no earlier citation than the fourth century,
for the celebration of the midsummer festival being associated with
the new and strange Roman religion. The festival had obviously been
conducted for millenia prior to the fourth century, but other deities
were then associated to the festival.

We know Constantine fixed Sunday as a day of rest 321 CE.
The traditional festival at midsummer was probably implemented
after this date, in association with the propaganda with the
new religion.

gstafleu

I'm maybe starting to see where the confusion comes from. I'm not saying that 'Christmas is a pagan festival.' In our times it is celebrated by Christians (and others, but let's leave those out for now), so it is a Christian festivity. No doubt there.

But just as no person is an island, neither is a religion. Christianity borrowed from pre-existent mythology, and the winter solstice aspects of Christmas are one aspect of that. That doesn't turn Christmas into a purely pagan festival. But neither is it useful to deny that there are pagan remnants visible.

Let me give you an analogy. I live in Ontario, Canada. Ontario was "settled" by the British. The British in turn were, in 1066, "settled" by the French. Does that mean that Ontario is just an extension of France, a "warmed over" belle pays? Of course not. But when I eat dead cow I consume beef, should I venture towards deceased sheep it would be mutton and expired pigs turn into pork. So there are remnants visible. And to explain these remnants it is useful to know about 1066.

Gerard Stafleu

Vexen

"Sometimes non-Christians complain that Christmas is too Christian, and sometimes hardline Christians complain that Christmas is too pagan. Agents of the Politically Correct complain it is too culturally or religiously homogenous. In reality, Christmas is already a multicultural, multi-religious festival. It combines sun worship, polytheism, pagan nature religions, Christianity, and other later myths and traditions. The date of the 25th accords with Sun Worship thousands of years old, the Christmas tree and some of the decorations are pagan, the Nativity stories are pagan, Mithraistic, Roman and Christian. In addition to all of its rich history, Christmas has now become largely a secular holiday and a commercial enterprise with many tacky, mass-produced, plastic and branded items such as Santa Claus's red uniform, designed by Coca Cola. The non-religious can celebrate the commercial and social event, Christians can pretend Christmas has something to do with Christ, pagans can celebrate nature, and all can be happy. Unless of course you are an anti-commercialist anti-popularist secular cynic like me."
"Christmas: A Multicultural, Multifaith Celebration" by Vexen Crabtre 2005.

Roger Pearse

It would be most interesting to see ancient documentation of such an association, other than Sol Invictus.

Well, may I ask how we know this? For this statement to be true, someone must have said something like "Aha! I will borrow this pagan stuff and pretend it is Christian". If so, who is this person? As far as I know nobody knows of such an event. (NB: I'm not jumping down your throat -- no doubt you have read this and repeated it in good faith. But I am increasingly suspicious that we are all being sold a pup, and I want us all to see the data on which these sorts of statements are based).

I don't know of any element in the historical record which associates Mithras in any way with this.

There is just too much disinformation floating around here, it seems to me, and too many half-baked assertions for any of us to see the facts from the fluff. Perhaps we should simply reject all these stories until we see the ancient evidence?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

mountainman

RE: The date of the 25th accords with Sun Worship thousands of years old

The documentation is embodied in the architectural alignment
of thousands of megalithic structures scattered across western
Europe and the British Isles, and incorporated at a later date,
into the pyramids of Egypt. Structures such as Stonehenge
and Newgrange incorporate the midwinter and midsummer sun
calibration, as well as, according to some authors, calibration
for the cycles of the planet Venus, morning star and evening
star cycle of 7 years, and a larger cycle of 40 years.

One Professor Thom, in the sixties and seventies(?), did comparitive
analysis of many hundred of such sites and published results that
disclose a number of issues, among them the above.

Lomax and Knight, in their "Uriel's Machine", cite the Book of Enoch
as describing the construction of a megalithic structure, the windows
being described being the windows between standing stones.

These ancient architectural monuments were essentially
used by the ancients as "horizon declinometers", or the
equivalent of a gun-barrel sighting on the horizon. In this
was the relative motion of the sun, moon and planets were
seen at their critical points throughout the cycle of the year.



Ahem ...

Did Constantine invent christianity?

dude guy

You sound like the kinda guy who should join Discontinuation. Please check it out.

As for the holidays: easter originated because the egg represents life (like the ressurection) and germans used to think bunnies laid eggs.

As for christmas, as has been said, this is what happened: as christianity took over the roman empire, Mithraic festivals and beliefs were blended into it. December 25th to January 5th were the twelve days of the winter solstice festival in rome- they became the twelve days of christmas. The manger story of Jesus' virgin birth was stolen (probably) from the Egyptian myth of Ra:

"Ra was an Egyptian god, the son of Neith.

Basically, the comparison between Ra and Jesus is all about the birth of Ra and how similar it is to the Jesus story:

The spirit god Kneph impregnated Neith with Ra
Before Neith gave birth to Ra, the messenger god Thoth came and told her about her coming child
Ra's mother, Neith, supposedly remained a virgin until after she'd given birth to him.
At Ra's birth, other gods came and worshipped him as a god
Neith is referred to as Mery, the Egyptian word for 'beloved'

The pharoah Amenhotep III applied this nativity scene to his wife giving birth to his son Akhenaten, whom he claimed was divine. Thus, from then on, people remembered the story as a mortal woman giving birth to a son who was both human and divine. Sound familiar?"