Dharma

Mark
3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. (3:31-34) Who is my mother
Jesus shows disrespect for his mother and family by asking, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" when he is told that his family wants to speak with him.
How should parents be treated?
3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Luke
2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. (2:43-49)
"Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us?"
When Jesus' parents begin the long trip back to Nazareth, the twelve year old Jesus stays behind, without asking their permission. Mary and Joseph search for him for three days and when they finally find him, Jesus doesn't apologize. Rather, he blames them for not knowing that he was doing his father's business.
2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
(8:20-21)
"My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it."
Jesus, when told that his mother and brothers want to see him, ignores and insults them by saying that his mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.

motorhead

Regarding the Mark episode, you don't know that Jesus didn't make that statement (just to make a point to his followers) and then proceed to go outside and talk with his mother and brothers.

Plus, you have to consider this event may not even have been an event from the life of Jesus. The writer of the Gospel could've made it up to make a point to the audience who was to receive this Gospel.

I think it's impossible to hold any concrete opinion about this episode. You need more context to be able to judge it properly, and then (as mentioned) it may have been made up by the writer so if it was, how can anyone hold it against the historical Jesus?

Dharma

well, let's see:

1) you claim it might've been made up by the writers.
2) because it MIGHT'VE been made up, not to hold it against the HISTORICAL JESUS.
3) why should ANYONE talk that way about his mother and siblings, if he didn't think them to be his REAL mother and siblings anyway?

Now am I the only who sees the contradiction in your statement? The only records of the HISTORICAL Jesus is in the New Testament, the writers whom you claim might be making this up...so according to you if the New Testament authors like making things up:
1) you discard any notion of the HISTORICAL Jesus since his disciples were liars according to you.
2) and you should think ALL things written in the New Testament are false since the authors like making things up.
3) thus Jesus and his miracles were also made up.

motorhead

No, I'm saying there's a couple different possibilities when it comes to interpreting this episode. I don't know which one is actually correct. It could very well be an incident straight from the life of the HJ but it could also have been invented by the Gospel writer to make a point to his readers.

I don't discard the notion of the HJ. I believe Jesus existed, and I also believe the NT Gospels are sources for events and sayings from the life of the HJ. However, I don't accept that these events and sayings are all from the life of the HJ. Some were made up to make a point to readers. Others may have a source from the life of the HJ but the writer may have embellished it to make a point.

Dharma

and how do you formulate your beliefs on the basis of what might be and what might NOt be based on what seems to be pure conjecture on your part? The writers are QUOTING Christ...so do you think the disciples to whom these scriptures are attributed to would be THAT arrogant as to put words into Jesus' mouth?

motorhead

Well, I've studied a fair bit on the HJ, from different viewpoints (Christian and non-Christian). These studies form a significant part of my beliefs about the HJ. These studies are done by Bible scholars, men and women whose careers are dedicated to these studies. I do not claim to be an expert on the HJ. I formulate my beliefs on various subjects by different means. Depends on what the subject is.

I don't think the writers of the Gospels would see themselves as putting words in the mouth of Jesus. Having said that, the Gospels (especially John) do contain events and sayings of Jesus that were created by the Gospel writers. They did this to make some kind of point to their readers. Remember, the writers were writing to a specific audience with specific concerns. The writers creating events and sayings for Jesus would not be seen by them as lying. I believe this style of religious writing was how religious writing was done at that time.

The issue of which events and sayings go back to the HJ and which are invented has been debated for a long time and will continue to be debated for many years.

Boomeister

Jesus "felt" adopted? What does that mean, rejected?
Jesus might've felt misunderstood. I always found that passage curious as well. His disrespect is a bad example of how to handle that situation. Maybe it pinpoints Jesus' humanity that he too can have a temper and say mean things out of anger (like the cursed fig tree; or the turning over the tables in the temple).
Jesus didn't always turn the cheek, that's for sure.

Part of cult-mentality is to reject those family members that don't go along with the cult and to embrace members of the cult as your family. This passage makes sense coming from that perspective.

Boomeister

Joan of Bark

When you put this passage in context, I believe you will see that indeed Jesus WAS estranged from his family. Every time Jesus refers to family, either his own or others, he does so in a VERY negative way. For instance ...

(From the NRSV) Matthew 8-21: Another of his disciples said to him "Lord, let me first go and bury my father" But Jesus said to him, "follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead"

Mt 10-21: (Jesus) "Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death."

Mt 10-35: (Jesus) "For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Mt 23-9: (Jesus) "And call no man your father on Earth, for you have one father, who is in heaven."

Luke 9-61: "I will follow you Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home." Jesus said to him "No one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

Luke 14-26: (Jesus) "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his won father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

Luke 18-29: (Jesus) "Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not recieve manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life."