Freethought & Rationalism Archive

deadman_932 · 01-29-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Amazing claim. Let's see the proof. The Ezekiel quote is not proof.

Do you have historical proof that Nebby engaged in naval warfare?

The island of Tyre didn't need to be set upon by ships...Alexander just built a "mole" -- a causeway -- because the island was only meters from the shore (claims range from 1000 meters to a few hundred). The water on the shore side isn't even deep enough to handle a ship. Get a grip.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-29-2008, 03:06 PM

Message to arnoldo: What evidence do you have regarding when the Tyre prophecy was written?

Sheshonq · 01-29-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Gates? GATES?!?! :rolling: Where in your encyclopedia does it say that it took him 13 YEARS TO OPEN THE GATES?!?! Please...

Worst... leader... ever.

10 seconds, my friend... 10 seconds.

Indeed. I don't have my Britannica at the office with me at the moment, but in about an hour I'll be home. When I get there, I plan to check this out to see if -- as I suspect -- arnoldo has been creatively editing the Britannica entry to rescue his crippled argument.

If so, then the next step is to report him to the mods for plagiarizing and revising a copyrighted work, and see if he can be banned for it.

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Gates? GATES?!?! :rolling: Where in your encyclopedia does it say that it took him 13 YEARS TO OPEN THE GATES?!?! Please...

Worst... leader... ever.

10 seconds, my friend... 10 seconds.

You obviously don't understand that "opening the gates' means entering the city. Let's see if you "get it" from the jewishencyclopedia.com

Quote:

but Nebuchadnezzar (comp. Ezek. xxvi. 7) obtained, after a siege of thirteen years, a certain submission in 574 B.C. Alexander the Great (332) first stormed the island-city after building a large dam across the shallow strait; and he sold 30,000 inhabitants as slaves.

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman_932

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Do you have historical proof that Nebby engaged in naval warfare?

The island of Tyre didn't need to be set upon by ships...Alexander just built a "mole" -- a causeway -- because the island was only meters from the shore (claims range from 1000 meters to a few hundred). The water on the shore side isn't even deep enough to handle a ship. Get a grip.

Wrong again.

Sheshonq · 01-29-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darklighter

Gates? GATES?!?! :rolling: Where in your encyclopedia does it say that it took him 13 YEARS TO OPEN THE GATES?!?! Please...

Worst... leader... ever.

10 seconds, my friend... 10 seconds.

You obviously don't understand that "opening the gates' means entering the city. Let's see if you "get it" from the jewishencyclopedia.com

Quote:

but Nebuchadnezzar (comp. Ezek. xxvi. 7) obtained, after a siege of thirteen years, a certain submission in 574 B.C. Alexander the Great (332) first stormed the island-city after building a large dam across the shallow strait; and he sold 30,000 inhabitants as slaves.

And as we might expect, your cited source (jewishencyclopedia.com) mentions zero about "opening the gates". Leading a rational person to ask, "Why the hell did you quote that source, then?"

Sheshonq · 01-29-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman_932

The island of Tyre didn't need to be set upon by ships...Alexander just built a "mole" -- a causeway -- because the island was only meters from the shore (claims range from 1000 meters to a few hundred). The water on the shore side isn't even deep enough to handle a ship. Get a grip.

Wrong again.

And how would you know if he was wrong or not?

You didn't even know that Alexander built a causeway.
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::roll ing::rolling::rolling:

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Wrong, after the 13 year seige Nebby broke through the walls but the people have all fled to the Island.

Uh, wrong. If you think the people had fled the island, then (a) who was defending the mainland suburb and (b) why would Nebuchadnezzar have been assautling an empty suburb colony anyhow?

Quote:

Alexander the Great conquered Tyre exactly as stated in the book of Ezekiel.

Except that Ezekiel states Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Tyre, not Alexander.

Wrong again.

Quote:

Atheistic argument:

>Ezekiel 26:3-36 explains at length that
>Nebuchadnezzar will lay siege to Tyre and destroy it, that he will take its
>money and goods, that the city will "be built no more" and "be no more."
>Any history book about the period will explain that Nebuchadnezzar's
>thirteen year siege was unsuccessful. The city was later conquered by
>Alexander the Great, but it was rebuilt and is currently inhabited

Answer
Atheist frequently quote this passage as evidence so let’s dispel this myth. This argument uses half-truths to back up the atheists claim of unfulfilled prophecy. I have seen this on several atheist websites and newsgroup postings. The real tragedy with atheism is that they take as truth what is hear only from these sources and never validate these claims to find out if they are true. I have done a little research and here is the historical evidence about the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy:

Indeed Ezekiel did prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar shall lay siege and destroy Tyre. Verse 3 of the passage you cited also says that more nations will also be involved in the destruction of Tyre. Now here is the half-truth that atheist love to quote. Actually it is a series of half-truths. They claim Tyre was not destroyed – it was. They also claim that because Nebuchadnezzar didn’t finish the job, Ezekiel was wrong. Most atheist argue that Ezekiel was wrong because Alexander the Great defeated Tyre when Ezekiel 26:7-9 gives Nebuchadnezzar as the defeating leader. The half-truth is that indeed Nebuchadnezzar did defeat Tyre and fulfill exactly what the Bible says he will do. Alexander fulfilled the Bible's claim that the timber, stones and soil would be thrown into the sea leaving Tyre as a bare rock. The Bible does not call the leader by name who would fulfill this part of the prophecy, but it clearly specifies other nations would be involved.

When Nebuchadnezzar defeated Tyre, the people fled to an island. Alexander came and these same people resisted his conquering empire. To get to the island, Alexander the Great used the remains of the city in which Nebuchadnezzar had laid siege to build a bridge to the island and thus completely destroyed the remaining city of Tyre and completely fulfilled the prophecy of Ezekiel to the letter. Ezekiel 26 verse 12 says, "they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water."

It is very important to notice Nebuchadnezzar was called by name and when he is addressed in verse 7-8 the prophecy is addressed as 'he'...ie, "He will slay...He will direct his battering rams...". In verse 12 the prophecy is addressed as 'they', ie, "they will plunder...they will break...they will lay your stones, timber and soul in the midst of the water". Clearly this prophecy was not addressed to Nebuchadnezzar but rather to those who would follow.

This 'inaccuracy' is not as the atheist claims, but rather this prophecy was fulfilled to the exact letter proving that no one but God could have known before hand these events separated by so many years. If Nebuchadnezzar had fulfilled it all, it would have been said that he saw this prophecy and self-fulfilled it or that Ezekiel knew of Nebuchadnezzar’s plans and he prophesied accordingly. But when you see that God foretold that Nebuchadnezzar would not be able to complete the job but nations would wipe Tyre clean and when you see Nebuchadnezzar's defeat of the city, Tyre's flight to the island and Alexander's bridge to the island, you can't explain it any other way except that this Bible was inspired by God.
http://www.exchangedlife.com/skeptic/ezekiel.htm

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Wrong again.

And how would you know if he was wrong or not?

Historical evidence. A mighty fortress island was surrounded by a pool of water?:huh: Didn't tyre send SHIPS amongst the nations and thereby gain it's wealth?:huh:

deadman_932 · 01-29-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadman_932

The island of Tyre didn't need to be set upon by ships...Alexander just built a "mole" -- a causeway -- because the island was only meters from the shore (claims range from 1000 meters to a few hundred). The water on the shore side isn't even deep enough to handle a ship. Get a grip.

Wrong again.

I don't take your word for it. Cite your references. Here's one of mine:

Quote:

http://sciam.com/article.cfm?article...0&chanID=sa003
Researchers say they have figured out how the Macedonian conqueror Alexander the Great was able to build a nearly kilometer-long road over the sea to strike at the island of Tyre in 332 B.C. Based on geologic samples taken from the area, in what is now Lebanon, they conclude that the island and shore were linked by a stretch of sand a few meters below the water's surface—well-suited for traversing with an artificial bridge.
The island today is in fact more of a peninsula, connected to the coast by an outgrowth of sand called a tombolo.

A kilometer is about 1093 yards...and the article states it was less than a Km.

Zeke the freak: 26:19 For thus says the Lord Yahweh: When I shall make you a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep on you, and the great waters shall cover you;

Just another false prophecy, as vapid as Isaiah 17:1-2
An oracle concerning Damascus. Damascus will cease to be a city, and will become a heap of ruins. Her towns will be deserted forever...

I don't want a derail here...I'm just pointing out that there's more than one failed prophecy that literalists can't deal with except by shady empty claims and really bad apologetics suffused with fallacies and rhetorical bullshit.

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01-29-2008, 03:06 PM	#492
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: What evidence do you have regarding when the Tyre prophecy was written?

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