Johnny Skeptic

Why yes I am, and with good reason since God broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre, referce Ezekiel 29, which, by the way, is part of the Tyre prophecy. Even if it wasn't, one life is all that it takes to discredit Christianity.

Why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander?

The Tyre prophecy does not make any sense because by the time that Alexander defeated the island settlement, the Tyrians against whom the prophecies had been made had been dead for centuries. In addition, many babies were killed who did not do anything to displease God.

What good are Bible prophecies to people who do not know about them? Even today, some people do not know about Bible prophecies.

shedex2.0

If one is to take the Bible literally, then the Hebrews were rebelling against cruel laws such as: stoning their children, stoning a person who works on the sabbath, stoning a rape victim who didn't scream loud enough, treating a woman on her menstrual cycle as unclean, killing everyone (babies included) from other tribes, etc....I admire the Hebrews for their stance against tyranny and cruel and senseless laws, kudos to them for not bowing to YHWH.

militant agnostic

I am a little confused as to what this Covenant was supposed to mean. If this situation that Isreal has with other countries is to make any sense in the context of the original Covenant then it seems like the original covenant was the lie.

The promise that God made to Isreal was a garantee of victory over all of the the lands of Cannon. It didn't say that there was a chance of victory and that if they were sucessful he would uphold his end of the arangement. It didn't say that the conquest had to be completed by a certain date before the offer became revoked.

It just said that God promised that they would inherit all the lands of Cannon, period.

These qoutes almost make it sound like God promised them the lands of Cannon by conquest and then looked down from heaven sometime afterwords and said "oops they lost!", and now hes telling them it's their fault and that they are going to be punished for it; "Ohh well, it looks like you din't conquer the place in time, what happened? Well the deals off then".

militant agnostic

Actually their were two components to the covenant. One was the promise of the conquest and the other was that after words the Jews had to uphold all the rules dealing with what they did once they had it. But there can be no doubt that there was a promise of sucess there if they tried.

For the Jews to win a war against all the powers of the lands of Cannon would have taken a miracle, and thats what they expected. It's only true that the other element to it was conditional.

Otherwise we are left with a very wierd proposition by God indeed. He would basically be telling them that they have to win this battle that they they have like no chance of winning and then just leave them with no help or advise. Thats not what that part of the covenant was about.

I think God's help is assumed in this and that help extended to making sure the conquest was succesful no matter what. That inclueds making sure that while the conquest was happening the soldiers didn't break the rules of the later part of the covenant and so ruin the first promise of the conquest (if he didnt do this then there could be no promise of help since it ultimatly would depend on no one having serious doubts, which is unlikely) and finding ways of constantly neutralizing enemies that would other wise trample and demoralize them.

None of those things happened. Not that its relevant anyway since the Jews didn't come from Egypt and there never was a "conquest" in that sense just some fights between Jews and few other regional groups that the Jews won and lost just like anyone else.

Jack the Bodiless

Where's the "problem" here? Deuteronomy wasn't written by Moses (a fictional character), it was written after the Babylonian Exile (though incorporating some pre-exilic material). Hence, it was written after the event... like Daniel was.
And yet it WAS destroyed: Israel did not exist as a nation for two thousand years. :huh:

Baalazel

Genesis 15: 18, "In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."

As so often happens Christian apologists don't research their arguments and so are open to refutation by scripture. This is possible because so few of them actually read scripture and lift their apologetics from the works of others.

This leads them to erect great mounds of apologies which they hope will convince by sheer weight alone. They think this because they are convinced themselves by the sheer weight of those great mounds.

It is inevitable that they, not understanding the argument they offer, will miss some small detail which upon discovery brings destruction to them.

The quote above is the small detail that destroys sugarhitmans mound.

To avoid destruction he only needs to offer the passage from scripture which says the nation of Israel did occupy the whole land God gave to Abram and tell us that Israel now occupies that same land.

All things stand or fall on this answer. I don't expect the answer to come.

Baal

sugarhitman

Hi guys, i'm baaaaaccccck

Some of the authors still have not either paid attention to my answer, or just isn't looking for one. But I will once again repeat why Israel was not able to recieve all the promise. When one of Israel's greatest leaders, Joshua, had "waxen old" and became "stricken with age" before he died he reminded Israel that...."the Lord have driven out from among you great nations and strong....Take heed therefore unto yourselves, that you love the Lord your God. Else if you do any way go back (backslide into disobedience), and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that *remain among you*, and shall marry with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the Lord your God have given you." Joshua 22


"So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers....Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass." Joshua 21


Israel had been given all the land but there were Gentile nations still living in the land who were put under tribute by the Israelites. Judges 1

This making the Caananites into tributary cities was contrary to God's commands therefore he punished them: "Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim (after Israel's disobedience) and said: 'I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and said I will never break my covenant with you. And you shall make no covenant (peace treaties, or making them to be tributaries which is also a covenant agreement) with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their alters. But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? Therefore I also said, I will not drive them out before you, but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you."


The words "they shall be thorns in your side" means that these nations around and among Israel will be hostile and agressive towards them as long as they exist together in that land. Which has been true right up to the present day. The battle over that land started thousands of years ago...and continues even right now while I write this!!

It was because of disobedience that the Jews were not able to hold on or to have peace in that land....and not because God makes false promises as some has hinted at. But to the saved Israelites the promise in the end will be fulfilled after the coming of the "Promised One."


"Behold the days are coming says the Lord,
That I will raise to David a Branch of righteoness;
A King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgement
and righteousness in the earth.
In His days JUDAH WILL BE SAVED,
And Israel WILL DWELL SAFELY;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS


How will Israel dwell safely? "Thus says the Lord : Against all My evil neighbors who touch the (land) inheritance which I caused My people Israel to inherit...behold, I will pluck them out of their land and pluck out the house of Judah from among them. Then it shall be, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them and bring them back, everyone to his heritage and everyone to his land. And it shall be, if they will learn carefully the ways of My people TO SWEAR BY MY NAME, AS THE LORD LIVES, as they taught My people to swear by Baal, then they shall be established in the midst of My people. But if they do not obey, I WILL UTTERLY PLUCK UP AND DESTROY THAT NATION, says the Lord."

Israel and the whole world will be at peace. When the whole world is truly under one God. Israel (that is saved Israel) will have all that was promised to them when the Messiah returns to rule the earth in righteousness and peace forever. Not only the Jews but the Gentiles also. May the Truth of God come into your hearts. :wave:

Jack the Bodiless

No, it is because the Biblical God does not exist.

Remember, YOU were the one who tried to claim that the existence of Israel was "proof" of the existence of God. But now you've done an about-turn and are deperately making excuses for yet another prophecy failure.

...Which is why I have asked you (repeatedly) for a verifiably-successful prophecy: something that might actually indicate God's existence. Something to offset the Bible's abysmal track record of failed prophecies.

And you cannot provide one.

Because there aren't any.

sugarhitman

Im making up excuses? I have just qouted FROM THE BIBLE and have not made anything up. The Bible is filled with many prophecies about the destruction and restoration of the Nation of Israel and why God did it. As well as prophecies about disputes over that land by Israel and the surrounding nations.
To bad many people have failed to see this. They fail because "having eyes to see they see not and having ears to hear, they hear not." They see and hear....and yet reject it. Self- Delusion= Rejection:wave:

Jack the Bodiless

What you quoted "FROM THE BIBLE" was an excuse for prophecy-failure.

Once again: there are no verifiably-successful prophecies in the Bible.

If Israel wins a battle: you have an explanation. If Israel loses: you have an explanation. If Israel is destroyed and its people scattered: you have an explanation. If its people come together again: you have an explanation. What you fail to understand is that all this actually makes your explanations worthless: because nothing is specifically prophesied.