OldYgg

You know I've been thinking about this...

And I'm just an average person in our era - that knows how to write and has lots of opinions. I've written over 50,000 words on www.useless-knowledge.com - about a variety of subjects.

And I've written a lot of words here, and I've written (and am writing) technical documentation, I've written papers in college, etc.

Now, assuming Jesus was literate, and that he had opinions about a lot of things that were going on in his time - it is reasonable to assume that a) he wanted to express those opinons and 2) he would have written a lot of those opinions.

In fact, he probably would have written the leaders of the times and mentioned that he disagreed with this or that bit of administrative or war action those leaders participated.

So, given that he had an entire lifetime before the events in the bible - and that typically people didn't live all that long in that time period - you would think Jesus would have accumulated a lot of writing.

Given also, the propensity of followers to hold on to these kinds of things - to protect those things at all costs including their lives - and that even as they became too old that these people would have recopied these texts (even if they no longer knew what the words on the paper meant - as happened with monks at various times in history) - where are those texts?

Even if Jesus just kept a log of the events in his life and the inspirations that he discovered - that log would be longer than the bible itself.

But this does not exist. In fact no written word exists that can be directly attributed to Jesus.

So - I don't think he existed. Or - he was illiterate. Or - he had no significant opinions about the world he lived in.

Take your pick. Certainly the cost of writing materials would not have stopped the son of god from writing his thoughts on specific subject matters.

Old Ygg

seraphimkawaii

i would say if he existed, he seems to have opinions about the time he lived in. he did, afterall, see a need to preach to people because they were so full of sin and couldn't possibly repent themselves.
im not sure if he was illiterate or not. he very well could have been, but i will have to go look that up. interesting angle, i must say. or perhaps im just very ignorant; thats always a possibility lol

TomboyMom

I have to take issue with this definition of contradictory. I don't think this is the definition you would apply to any other text, including any other religious text. It is always possible for two accounts to be true, one can twist the interpretation so far as to reconcile them. Two accounts are contradictory if they contradict each other. For example, if they give two inconsistent accounts of the same event, they are contradictory. That would apply equally to all texts or accounts, including the bible.

TomboyMom

Actually, no, while you may take issue with these accounts, as one can with any history, and for all I know someone has disputed Socrates' existence, the evidence is much more compelling than Jesus, simply because all 3 accounts are first person accounts, written by people who knew him. This is a huge difference, and the only way to overlook it is by tremendous special pleading.

In addition, nothing in Plato's life depended on proving the existence or nature of Socrates; he would probably have greater glory if Socrates were a fictional character.

TomboyMom

Sigh. No, only Christianity has the unique history of Christianity. The point, however, is that fictional writings can fool people, as in the case of Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard, unless you believe that these writings are true?

TomboyMom

Really, I missed it. Could you please help me out and recapitulate it, or at least those items on the list that you believe constitute non-bible, non-church writings, remotely contemporary, non-forged? Thanks.

aa5874

Judaism claims Christianity is a hoax for 2000 years. Judaism has been around for over 2000 years. Muslims say Jesus was not the Son of God over 1500 years ago. Now, tell me which of these are hoax, Christianity, Judaism or Muslim.

If one looks at the geographical map, it is interesting to note that all region, where Jesus was said to have preached and carried out supernatural miracles, have rejected Him as the Son of God or the Messiah. The overwhelming majority of Jews and Arabs regard Jesus as a hoax and they have been around for thousands of years.

cajela

Why does MJ have to be a hoax, anyway? Why not legitimate fiction with a teaching component? Like Aesop's fables and so on. Why should Jeshua be more real than Br'er Rabbit?

Dargo

We know Hubbard and Smith were both thoroughly debunked during their own lifetimes, yet still managed to win plenty of converts. I find it amusing that Christians assume that the Gospels would have been easily proven to be forgeries if they had been anything less than absolute truth. Even if early Christians were presented with convincing evidence that the Gospels were bullshit, I doubt this evidence would have mattered any more to most of them than similar evidence does to Mormons and Scientologists. Of course, as soon as Christianity became the official religion, any unofficial accounts of their early history would have been destroyed just as Mormons and Scientologists would do if given the opportunity.

Clarice O'C

Funerary art as an additional primary source on Jesus:

http://www.servius.org/Christian/

Best,
Clarice
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries/