Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 12-24-2003, 10:50 AM

Have a read of 1 timothy.

The writing switches from verses about how wonderful and glorious god is to huge lists of how evil mankind is. There are similar examples in his other writings.

We know he had a major vision.

What would a psychiatrist make of it? Labile?

Toto · 12-24-2003, 11:04 AM

Most scholars do not seem to think that Paul wrote 1 Timothy, so this is not any evidence about Paul or his mental state.

If you tried to use everything written by or allegedly by or about Paul, you would come up with a schizophrenic, lying, inconsistent character, a misogynist who worked closely with women, who repressed his sexuality and was probably gay but supported marriage, a Jew who was proud of his heritage but thought that Jews were cursed by God and that the Jewish law was a burden. That's why critical scholarship assigns much of it to fiction, forgery, interpolations, etc., since we like people to be somewhat consistent.

variant 13 · 12-24-2003, 11:35 AM

While I haven't read timothy I know a bit about M/D.

Manic depressives go through cycles of mania and depression. It all depends on the person as to how long each cycle lasts (barring meds), cycles can last years or months, or even less. Cycles can be predictable, very regular or they length of the cycles can decrease, usually end (if I remember rightly) with just depression.

http://www.dbsalliance.org/info/bipolar.html#symptoms

During the manic phase people are capable of great creative works, and can write lots or paint lots, during the depressive phase people aren't usually up to much.

scigirl · 12-24-2003, 01:11 PM

Interesting theory.

I've always thought that many of the Old Testament writers had Obsessive Compulsive disorder. Of course there's no way to know for sure...

Paul = bipolar. Could explain some things. Too bad valproic acid and lithium weren't around back then - Christianity might not even exist!

scigirl

lpetrich · 12-24-2003, 11:42 PM

I've also seen the theory that Paul had been an epileptic -- which would presumably explain his "conversion".

frostymama · 12-26-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
I've also seen the theory that Paul had been an epileptic -- which would presumably explain his "conversion".

I have heard this theory before as an explanation of the "thorn in his side", but I am not sure that I buy it. Epilepsy in the NT was considered demon posession (and still is in some more fundy Xian sects).

My take on Paul is that he was just a loose cannon. As I recall James didn't think to highly of him and Peter was basically stuck in the middle.

variant 13 · 12-26-2003, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Epilepsy in the NT was considered demon posession (and still is in some more fundy Xian sects).

It rather does depend on what type a person suffers from (there are many).

The one that seems to be described in the bible (not read that much) generalised tonic-clonic convulsive seizure (also known as grand mal) where consciousness is often impaired and the person has what is commonly refered to as a fit.

Other types can be much more subtle, such as simple partial seizures where:

Quote:

...consciousness is not impaired. The seizure may be confined to either rhythmical twitching of one limb or part of a limb, or to unusual tastes or sensations such as pins and needles in a specific part of the body. Simple partial seizures sometimes develop into other sorts of seizures and so they may be referred to as a 'warning' or 'aura'

http://www.epilepsynse.org.uk/pages/...s/seizures.cfm

Postcard73 · 12-26-2003, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
I've also seen the theory that Paul had been an epileptic -- which would presumably explain his "conversion".

Manic depression could also explain Paul's vision and conversion on the Damascus Road. There are two degrees of bipolar disorder: type 1 and type 2, with type 1 being more serious. If a person with bipolar disorder has mixed episodes (i.e. meets diagnostic criteria for both mania and depression at the same time) and/or psychosis, then they will be type 1. Full-blown mania is also usually exclusive to type 1, while people who are type 2 experience hypo-mania but deeper depression...

If Paul suffered from type 1, then he could have been psychotic and "seen" Jesus. Mania could also explain his apparent zeal and intensity...

frostymama · 12-26-2003, 06:41 PM

I am unfortunately aware that there are different types of seizures. My sister has a seizure disorder to the degree that she is not employable.

She has the full range of seizures that can involve something as mild as staring off into space... to repetively moving her head or touching her hair or clothes and becoming very disoriented and combative for a few minutes... to the biting her tongue, wetting herself, foaming at the mouth convulsions that last for 10 minutes (ends in ER trip). It is because I have seen her go through so many different kinds of seizures that I don't believe that epilepsy fits in Paul's case.

Although it is possible for someone to have only very mild seizures... this doesn't seem to fit into the conversion story of Paul.

According to Acts 22, Paul saw a bright light, fell to the ground, and then heard a loud voice. It also states that while Paul was the only one to hear the voice, his companions saw the light. Afterwards he was blind for 3 days.

I am not a doctor, but it is my opinion that something mild enough to not be seen as a fit (and labeled a demon) would not be likely to cause him to fall to the ground and blind him. I suppose it is also possible for Paul to have lied about some of the details or that it never happend at all.

As a side note: I did see a show the other day that proposed that Paul's experience may have been caused by being hit by ball-lighting. They stated that lightening not only has the ability to cause temporary blindness, but has been known to affect the brains of victims causing them to feel a "presence" that isn't really there. I'm inclined to be more than a little skeptical about it, but it is a theory I hadn't heard before.

Toto · 12-26-2003, 11:05 PM

The descriptions of Paul's vision on the road to Damascus and temporary blindness are in Acts are not found in Paul's own writings, and you should be skeptical as to whether they represent the real story of Paul, or are legends with little or no basis in fact, told by writers who never knew Paul.

Some see these events as bearing a suspicious similarity to non-Chistian events:

Quote:

During the ceremony of initiation at the greater mysteries of Eleusis, the initiate would see a bright light and would receive the revelation of the mysteries. Similarly, Paul saw a bright light on the road to Damascus. He had a vision of a deity: Jesus. He received the gospel of Jesus by revelation. (Ephesians 3:3) ... how the mystery was made known to me by revelation ... (RSV) Thus, Paul was initiated to the mysteries of Christ.

From here. Also described in Pagan Regeneration

12-24-2003, 10:50 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Was Paul manic depressive? Have a read of 1 timothy. The writing switches from verses about how wonderful and glorious god is to huge lists of how evil mankind is. There are similar examples in his other writings. We know he had a major vision. What would a psychiatrist make of it? Labile?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-24-2003, 11:04 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Most scholars do not seem to think that Paul wrote 1 Timothy, so this is not any evidence about Paul or his mental state. If you tried to use everything written by or allegedly by or about Paul, you would come up with a schizophrenic, lying, inconsistent character, a misogynist who worked closely with women, who repressed his sexuality and was probably gay but supported marriage, a Jew who was proud of his heritage but thought that Jews were cursed by God and that the Jewish law was a burden. That's why critical scholarship assigns much of it to fiction, forgery, interpolations, etc., since we like people to be somewhat consistent.

12-24-2003, 11:35 AM	#3
variant 13 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: no where, uk Posts: 4,677	While I haven't read timothy I know a bit about M/D. Manic depressives go through cycles of mania and depression. It all depends on the person as to how long each cycle lasts (barring meds), cycles can last years or months, or even less. Cycles can be predictable, very regular or they length of the cycles can decrease, usually end (if I remember rightly) with just depression. http://www.dbsalliance.org/info/bipolar.html#symptoms During the manic phase people are capable of great creative works, and can write lots or paint lots, during the depressive phase people aren't usually up to much.

12-24-2003, 01:11 PM	#4
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Interesting theory. I've always thought that many of the Old Testament writers had Obsessive Compulsive disorder. Of course there's no way to know for sure... Paul = bipolar. Could explain some things. Too bad valproic acid and lithium weren't around back then - Christianity might not even exist! scigirl

12-24-2003, 11:42 PM	#5
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I've also seen the theory that Paul had been an epileptic -- which would presumably explain his "conversion".

12-26-2003, 06:41 PM	#9
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	I am unfortunately aware that there are different types of seizures. My sister has a seizure disorder to the degree that she is not employable. She has the full range of seizures that can involve something as mild as staring off into space... to repetively moving her head or touching her hair or clothes and becoming very disoriented and combative for a few minutes... to the biting her tongue, wetting herself, foaming at the mouth convulsions that last for 10 minutes (ends in ER trip). It is because I have seen her go through so many different kinds of seizures that I don't believe that epilepsy fits in Paul's case. Although it is possible for someone to have only very mild seizures... this doesn't seem to fit into the conversion story of Paul. According to Acts 22, Paul saw a bright light, fell to the ground, and then heard a loud voice. It also states that while Paul was the only one to hear the voice, his companions saw the light. Afterwards he was blind for 3 days. I am not a doctor, but it is my opinion that something mild enough to not be seen as a fit (and labeled a demon) would not be likely to cause him to fall to the ground and blind him. I suppose it is also possible for Paul to have lied about some of the details or that it never happend at all. As a side note: I did see a show the other day that proposed that Paul's experience may have been caused by being hit by ball-lighting. They stated that lightening not only has the ability to cause temporary blindness, but has been known to affect the brains of victims causing them to feel a "presence" that isn't really there. I'm inclined to be more than a little skeptical about it, but it is a theory I hadn't heard before.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.