Toto

Yes, there are several writers who claim that Christianity was invented to undermine Jewish nationalism, in particular Joe Atwill, who wrote Caesar's Messiah (or via: amazon.co.uk). There is a review by Robert Price here.

aa5874

Josephus was the "father" of Jesus?

Josephus wrote about John the Baptist.[Antiquities of the Jews 18]
Josephus wrote about persons named Jesus.[Life of Josephus]
Josephus lived in Galilee.[Life of Josephus]
Josephus wrote about the crucifixion of three persons where ONE of them survived.[Life of Josephus]
Josephus wrote about Pilate .[Antiquities of the Jews 18]

Jesus may have been born from the writings of Josephus.

Josephus may have been indeed the "father" of Jesus of the NT.

Clivedurdle

Yes, I was alluding to Atwill, but what about as aa puts it - It was Josephus and his team wot done it?

gstafleu

Yes, you are right, I missed the "dis" in "disproves." Thanks for that.

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu

Wouldn't Josephus have put in a bit more about Jesus if that is what he was up to? Perhaps it is more likely that somebody (Mark?) took Josephus description of Jesus ben Ananias and turned that into a Jesus story.

Gerard Stafleu

Clivedurdle

From review of Atwill above


What was that other thread here about irony in Mark again?

The above is argumentum harrumphii!

Clivedurdle

Ah but they might be separate works at different times - not a flavian pentateuch!

Josephus correctly made no mention of Jesus because he did not exist.

A team wrote the NT later possibly with or without Josephus help but definitely using his works and later still xian scribes improved Josephus to make it fit things better.

Alternatives - a traditional view - he is born of a virgin

He is some form of wandering preacher but in a reasonably peaceful context that plays down the reality of an occupied war zone.

Bit like someone else completing an unfinished composition.

mens_sana

"Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus' work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly fourty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines."
-- The Christ, by John E. Remsburg, pages 171-3.

Doesn't this assume that Jesus was someone to be reckoned with in his own lifetime?

Toto

If the gospel stories were basically true, Jesus would have been an important person. (If he weren't, it's hard to explain why Pilate would have taken him seriously enought to bother with crucifying him.)

In Remsberg's time, arguing that Jesus was merely human, or that the gospel stories were based on a mere human, was considered to be a highly radical stance, one that branded him as an irreligious heretic.

mens_sana

I see arguments today, the unstated foundation of which is the "triumph" of the later church, hence the greatness of Jesus (Christ!). But I don't think Jesus was an important person ca. 30 CE. And I suspect that Jesus' crucifixion may have been no more than the incidental result of Pilate's "orders of the day," which had to do with riot control during Passover in an overcrowded Jerusalem.