mike_decock

How much of JBap's life is recounted by Josephus? Was he more or less widely known than the gospels claim that Jesus was?

-Mike...

Vorkosigan

...hurry up...damn! Couldn't get the top screwed down in time....look at all those worms running away....

mike_decock

Hehehe Vork.

In all honesty, I'm not trying to ask a loaded question here. I'm not interested in speculation about whether or not we should expect more historical details for Jesus from Josephus (I'll form my own subjective opinion on that one).

I just want to see what we know about JBap from Josephus (or any other non-Christian sources) and get a feel for how widely known this odd character was.

-Mike...

spin

Here's the relevant AJ text from Bk 18 ch 5 (see paragraph 2):

1. ABOUT this time Aretas (the king of Arabia Petres) and Herod had a quarrel on the account following: Herod the tetrarch had, married the daughter of Aretas, and had lived with her a great while; but when he was once at Rome, he lodged with Herod, (15) who was his brother indeed, but not by the same mother; for this Herod was the son of the high priest Sireoh's daughter. However, he fell in love with Herodias, this last Herod's wife, who was the daughter of Aristobulus their brother, and the sister of Agrippa the Great. This man ventured to talk to her about a marriage between them; which address, when she admitted, an agreement was made for her to change her habitation, and come to him as soon as he should return from Rome: one article of this marriage also was this, that he should divorce Aretas's daughter. So Antipus, when he had made this agreement, sailed to Rome; but when he had done there the business he went about, and was returned again, his wife having discovered the agreement he had made with Herodias, and having learned it before he had notice of her knowledge of the whole design, she desired him to send her to Macherus, which is a place in the borders of the dominions of Aretas and Herod, without informing him of any of her intentions. Accordingly Herod sent her thither, as thinking his wife had not perceived any thing; now she had sent a good while before to Macherus, which was subject to her father and so all things necessary for her journey were made ready for her by the general of Aretas's army; and by that means she soon came into Arabia, under the conduct of the several generals, who carried her from one to another successively; and she soon came to her father, and told him of Herod's intentions. So Aretas made this the first occasion of his enmity between him and Herod, who had also some quarrel with him about their limits at the country of Gamalitis. So they raised armies on both sides, and prepared for war, and sent their generals to fight instead of themselves; and when they had joined battle, all Herod's army was destroyed by the treachery of some fugitives, who, though they were of the tetrarchy of Philip, joined with Aretas's army.. So Herod wrote about these affairs to Tiberius, who being very angry at the attempt made by Aretas, wrote to Vitellius to make war upon him, and either to take him alive, and bring him to him in bonds, or to kill him, and send him his head. This was the charge that Tiberius gave to the president of Syria.

2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him.

3. So Vitellius prepared to make war with Aretas, having with him two legions of armed men; he also took with him all those of light armature, and of the horsemen which belonged to them, and were drawn out of those kingdoms which were under the Romans, and made haste for Petra, and came to Ptolemais. But as he was marching very busily, and leading his army through Judea, the principal men met him, and desired that he would not thus march through their land; for that the laws of their country would not permit them to overlook those images which were brought into it, of which there were a great many in their ensigns; so he was persuaded by what they said, and changed that resolution of his which he had before taken in this matter. Whereupon he ordered the army to march along the great plain, while he himself, with Herod the tetrarch and his friends, went up to Jerusalem to offer sacrifice to God, an ancient festival of the Jews being then just approaching; and when he had been there, and been honorably entertained by the multitude of the Jews, he made a stay there for three days, within which time he deprived Jonathan of the high priesthood, and gave it to his brother Theophilus. But when on the fourth day letters came to him, which informed him of the death of Tiberius, he obliged the multitude to take an oath of fidelity to Caius; he also recalled his army, and made them every one go home, and take their winter quarters there, since, upon the devolution of the empire upon Caius, he had not the like authority of making this war which he had before. It was also reported, that when Aretas heard of the coming of Vitellius to fight him, he said, upon his consulting the diviners, that it was impossible that this army of Vitellius's could enter Petra; for that one of the rulers would die, either he that gave orders for the war, or he that was marching at the other's desire, in order to be subservient to his will, or else he against whom this army is prepared. So Vitellius truly retired to Antioch; but Agrippa, the son of Aristobulus, went up to Rome, a year before the death of Tiberius, in order to treat of some affairs with the emperor, if he might be permitted so to do. I have now a mind to describe Herod and his family, how it fared with them, partly because it is suitable to this history to speak of that matter, and partly because this thing is a demonstration of the interposition of Providence, how a multitude of children is of no advantage, no more than any other strength that mankind set their hearts upon, besides those acts of piety which are done towards God; for it happened, that, within the revolution of a hundred years, the posterity of Herod, which were a great many in number, were, excepting a few, utterly destroyed. (16) One may well apply this for the instruction of mankind, and learn thence how unhappy they were: it will also show us the history of Agrippa, who, as he was a person most worthy of admiration, so was he from a private man, beyond all the expectation of those that knew him, advanced to great power and authority. I have said something of them formerly, but I shall now also speak accurately about them.

Amaleq13

"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him." (Antiquities 18.5.2)

Zindler's (The Jesus the Jews Never Knew) Top Four reasons to suspect the Baptist passages in Josephus are interpolations:

1) Josephus clearly considered Macherus to be under the control of Aretas but the JBap passage has Herod sending JBap to Macherus to be executed while Herod was fighting with Aretas.

2) Herod's "bad end" is attributed to his killing of the Baptist while, elsewhere, Josephus attibutes it to "listening to a woman's frivolous chatter".

3) The JBap passage is not repeated during any of the Herod commentary in War of the Jews

4) JBap is not listed in an ancient Greek table of contents for Josehus but is listed in a later Latin version.

He suggests that the text reads smoothly with the JBap passage removed but acknowledges that, given the apparent "Josephan" flavor, it is possible to understand it as a normal Josephus digression.

Regarding John's reputation, the author of Mark seems to assume his audience held him in fairly high regard when he feels free to assert that the Pharisees were too scared to question his teachings (11:29-31)

Added Amazon link - MD

mike_decock

Thanks, guys. I wasn't aware that there was only one passage on JBap from Josephus. From the description, it sounds like he had quite a following and reputation but there's no clues about how long his career was.

Why does all this evidence seem so shifty?

-Mike...

spin

My interest is the date provided by Josephus for the war and its retribution. Whether the JB passage is original or not, it won't change the dating of the context for the gospel material about his death. JB railed against Herod A's smelly marriage activities including repudiating the Nabataean wife. This is where JB comes in. The result of the consequent war, which Tiberius was informed about and he wanted it dealt with, but Tiberius died (in 39 CE) before it could be dealt with.

We can give a year or two of message exchanging before Tiberius's death back to the time of Aretas's war with Herod A., say circa 36/37 CE. That puts JB going down say 35/36 according to this contextualisation. Yet, Jesus died, what, 32 years after the death of Herod the Great, ie about 28/9 CE. JB was supposed to have been dead a while before that according to the gospel material, Yet Josephus gives the death of JB (from contextualisation) perhaps 8 to 10 years later.


spin

mike_decock

Thanks. I've heard the discrepancy mentioned before but not in detail.

-Mike...

rlogan

Now you see, Mike - why a myth needs to avoid giving a date for the crucifixion.

Way too much risk of fatal contradictions.

Amaleq13

Do Josephus scholars address this anywhere?

It wouldn't be as much of a problem except the statement about Macherus being under the control of Aretas is in the immediately preceding paragraph!

Is it reasonable to think Josephus simply forgot to mention that Herod took control of Aretas prior to sending JBap there to be killed?

Do we have any other sources for the Aretas-Herod conflict that mention Macherus?