FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-18-2007, 04:04 PM   #11
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default A fly on the wall of the Library at Rome (312-324 CE)

And if in addition like me you are critically skeptical
you might also see that the libraries of Rome c.312 CE
were a gold mine of raw materials -- (Josephus, Porphyry,
Manichaeans, probably the Dhamma, etc, etc) ---
quite sufficient for the purposes of assembling the
fabrication of religious propaganda, and repackaging
old stories in a new idiom, and creating what was to
be known as the Constantine Bible.

Still running at a Basilica near you!

Best wishes,



Pete Brown



Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
If your a cynical bastard like me, you might see that it was another tale stolen from the writings of Flavius Josephus.

Quote:
2. Now, my father Matthias was not only eminent on account of is nobility, but had a higher commendation on account of his righteousness, and was in great reputation in Jerusalem, the greatest city we have. I was myself brought up with my brother, whose name was Matthias, for he was my own brother, by both father and mother; and I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s/autobiog.htm
mountainman is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 06:31 PM   #12
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: denver
Posts: 11,319
Default

Thanks everyone. However one last question. The Gospel of the Infancy of Thomas has the same story....so did that author borrow Luke or Josephus?


Mike
coloradoatheist is offline  
Old 12-18-2007, 08:10 PM   #13
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coloradoatheist View Post
Thanks everyone. However one last question. The Gospel of the Infancy of Thomas has the same story....so did that author borrow Luke or Josephus?


Mike
A gospel writer is more likely to be rewriting another gospel. But there is always the possibility that this story goes back to a common theme in prominent men - when he was a mere lad, he astounded the priests / professors / learned old men with his precocious wisdom.

I don't think that this can be treated as historical data with regard to either Jesus or Josephus.
Toto is offline  
Old 12-19-2007, 02:17 AM   #14
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 16,024
Default

Quote:
In the chapter "Precocious Child", Kinney found in the legend of Houji themes of precocious child in Han biographies. They served to justify the rise of worthy and often obscure individuals to a position of prestige or power. According to the poem, Shengmin (contained in the Confucian classic, the Book of Odes), Houji, whom the royal family of the Zhou claimed to be their ancestor, was conceived when his mother trod on the big toe of the footprint of the Lord on High. He was abandoned, but survived and grew up to teach people agriculture. Kinney's link between the prized values of the Han precocious children and an early mythology is quite significant. As we can see here, Houji's story, a mythology or an early legend, has already illustrated or perhaps helps to shape characteristics that have been highly treasured in later Chinese history, i.e. birth upon auspicious sign, perserverence, and making contributions to all the people. Moreover, Kinney's comparison of Houji with the Greek mythological figure Hercules and Hermes is interesting. Kinney argued that Houji displayed peaceful rather than violent skills, performed deeds to assist the society, and survived and thrived through an ordeal. These were treasured themes in Han biographical writings. Kinney argues that the examples of the precocious child, who thrived through merits and ordeal, also served to challenge aristocratic privilege during the Han dynasty.

Kinney provides many thoughtful insights regarding the definition and shifting focuses of precocious child in early and later Han dynastic biographies. It is a rich chapter, but perhaps it could add more stories of precocious child during the Han dynasties.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-152922874.html

Quote:
Fergus tells of the youth of Cuchulainn

Fergus Mac Rioch tells of the youth of Cuchulainn:

Fergus started his story:

"Cuchulainn, it is said by some, is the son of Sualdam and his wife Deichtine. Sualdam holds the area of Muirtheimne Plain for Conchobor and his fort is on a raised mound just beside the bay. There are others, though, who say that while Dechtine is the mother the father is not Sualdam. By some accounts Dechtine was spirited away on her wedding night by the god Lugh to his fortress under the mound at the place which now bears his name. This place is not the old Danaan mound by the Bru na Boinne but another, more sacred to him, concealed in the forested hills much closer to the Plain at Muirtheine. For three days the men of Ulster searched for her in vain. It is said by these same folk, and I believe them, that she reappeared just as suddenly back in the fort at Dun Dealgan, in Sualdam's wedding bed, already heavy with child, and her mind dazed.
The child was born and named Setanta - and this I saw myself: never was there a child more advanced and precocious as that one. Sualdam treated him proudly but more like a foster-father than if related by blood.
When he was five years he was fed up with living at Muirtheimne and, having heard about the boy-troops at Eamain Macha, asked his mother for her permission to leave.
"You are too young to go," she told him, "and there are no Ulster warriors to accompany you."
"I cannot wait and I do not need nor want the accompaniment of warriors," said Setanta to his mother. "Show me where Eamain lies and I will leave now, with or without your permission."
Knowing her son only too well, Dechtine resigned herself to the inevitable.
"To the North then, but the hard crossing of the mountains at Sliab Fuait lies in your way."
"Those I do not care about," said Setanta, and off he went to prepare for the journey. He assembled together his toy shield made of sticks and his favorite toy javelin, his hurling stick and ball, and set off for Eamain.
To pass the time he would throw his javelin far ahead of him then run and catch it before it fell, or he would hit the hurley ball with the stick and run to strike it again, and not once did the ball touch the ground from Muirtheimne to Eamain.
When he arrived at the playing field outside Eamain he saw the boy-troops practicing, and, not knowing he needed a promise of safety from the boys before he joined them on the field, ran to contest with them at sport and war-games.
"Look at this one !" they exclaimed. "Without a doubt he's from Ulster, judging by the gall of him. Let's teach him a lesson for his brazen nerve!"
They went for him and flung three times fifty javelins at him, all of which he stopped with his toy shield made of sticks. Then they threw their hurling balls at him and he stopped them with all with his chest and returned them with a sweep of his stick. Frustrated, they even flung their hurleys at him, spinning end over end: some he caught by the handle as he dodged them all.
Then Setanta was taken by the Warp-Spasm. Each hair on his head stood upright, like spines, and each one was tipped with a fire-spark. One eye squeezed tighter than the eye of a needle; the other opened as wide as a goblet. His mouth opened and stretched to his ears, his lips peeled back until all his teeth showed and you could see straight down his gullet. All around his head the hero-halo spun and flashed like a falling star.
He attacked the boy-troops. Fifty fell before him as they fled towards the gates of Eamain. Only nine made it through the gates, and these fairly flew across the fidchell board where Conchobor and I were playing. As Setanta passed by, the Warp-Spasm lessening, Conchobor grabbed at him and held him close.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_n...o?page_id=1927
Clivedurdle is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:50 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.