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Old 02-18-2010, 09:04 PM   #11
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When I was a conservative fundie preacher my response to that would have been something to the effect of:

The passage to which you refer, "Mark 16:17-18", must be understood in the context of God's plan.

God has never wanted his people to live in a state of confusion, so during transitional times he took steps to ensure that people had the means to know who to listen to.

For example, when Moses brought forth a new law, he was given the ability to perform miracles so that the people could know that he spoke in behalf of God.

Similarly, when Jesus entrusted the disciples to spread the gospel all over the world he knew there would be rampant skepticism and downright opposition.

So he gave those original twelve apostles special powers. They could perform all kinds of miracles, and they could confer a limited miraculous gift on someone by "laying on" of their hands. This way, during the transitional period between the established ("Old Testament") law and the completion of the bible which would establish the new one, people could know who to listen to because they were able to confirm their message through miracles.

Evidently, only the apostles had the ability to lay their hands on others to confer miraculous power. And the individual receiving such a gift would receive only one particular type of power. As an example, they might be able to speak in tongues but not necessarily interpret tongues. Or they might be able to heal diseases. Or they might receive the gift of prophecy.

In I Corinthians chapters 12 and 13 the writer is discussing these various gifts and their usage in the congregation. It appeared that some of the people who had "flashier" (and more useful) gifts (such as the ability to heal diseases or perform other miracles) would get lots of attention while others who had only gotten, say, the ability to speak in tongues wouldn't have much to do. After all, if everyone in the assembly shared the same language, what would be the point of someone addressing them in a different language?

So the writer made a simple rule: If there was nobody there who could understand the tongue-speaker then the tongue-speaker was to refrain from using his gift.

But the writer also told them of a time in the not-too-distant-future when all those gifts would disappear. "For now we know in part, we prophecy in part. But when that which is complete is come, that which is in part shall be done away with".

These various miracles were (once again) God's way of making sure that the people knew who to listen to and who to be skeptical of during the transitional time when everything pertaining to the new law had been established.

But once it was all established the miracles would go away. The completion of the bible made it no longer necessary to have these miracles. This period was over when the apostles all died and the people they had laid their hands on died. At that point the miracles ceased.
It's a tidy rationalization, but there's a lot of question begging and interpretive license involved. And of course there's the standard hermeneutic principle, "If the surface meaning of a 'difficult' passage conflicts with a 'simple' passage or reality, then you must reinterpret the 'difficult' passage so that it complies. Because the bible is never in error".

Problem is, there's nothing 'difficult' about Matthew 16:17-18. The only difficulty about it is the fact that it doesn't comply with reality.

I think that would have been called drinking the poison that could not harm you. Allegorically, of course.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:27 PM   #12
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* Given up drinking wine.

Far too great a sacrifice, man.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:45 AM   #13
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* Given up drinking wine.
* Given up hanging out in the houses of Publicans.
* Given up cursing fig trees
But didn't Jesus say to drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake? Medicinal purposes was a good enough excuse I suppose. And if you could turn water into wine, you'd be a very rich man today.
Actually "wine for thy stomach's sake" was attributed to Paul in I Timothy 5.

I think it's pretty much a slam dunk that Jesus's oneupgodship in turning water to wine in John 2 was to show everyone that anything Dionysus or Bacchus could do he could do better.
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:47 PM   #14
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But didn't Jesus say to drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake? Medicinal purposes was a good enough excuse I suppose. And if you could turn water into wine, you'd be a very rich man today.
Actually "wine for thy stomach's sake" was attributed to Paul in I Timothy 5.

I think it's pretty much a slam dunk that Jesus's oneupgodship in turning water to wine in John 2 was to show everyone that anything Dionysus or Bacchus could do he could do better.
Agreed.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:41 PM   #15
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I once shouted "Praise Jesus brother!" in order to get by a smelly street preacher in Chicago. Upon my proclamation he allowed me to pass. Does that count?
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:32 PM   #16
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Well, once when I was a kid, my mom made me take my gum out in church. When I stuck it under the pew, it was DoubleMint. When I retrieved it after the service, it had changed into Juicy Fruit!

A miracle!
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:34 PM   #17
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They're also supposed to be able to drink 'any deadly poison', and it won't harm them. Why don't Christians prove their faith by trying that one?
Some do. Drinking antifreeze, lamp oil, kerosene, is still part of the "holy ghost" meetings among some southern pentecostals. Oh, and snake handling is still popular in the "taking up serpents" ritual. But these are testing proof of their faith, not miracles. If someone recovers from the poisons or snake bite then the rewarded miracle is that they survived.
It's based on a misunderstanding of the aramaic idioms in the New Testament.

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16:18. "And they will handle snakes,*
and if deadly poison they drink,* it will not affect them."

*16:18.1 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression retained: "Take up snakes," or "Deal with evil people."
*16:18.2 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression retained: "If they drink poison of death," or "Whatever happens to them."


http://www.v-a.com/bible/mark_13-16.html#MARK16
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Old 02-19-2010, 06:43 PM   #18
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I once shouted "Praise Jesus brother!" in order to get by a smelly street preacher in Chicago. Upon my proclamation he allowed me to pass. Does that count?
Yes, it counts. In Jesus name the street preacher was authorized to give you a free pass. So there, see, you're going to heaven whether you like it or not.

Us people who are once saved always saved can do this stuff, as "it is written". Even as an atheist I still have this power of Christ vested in my redemption which Jesus cannot himself overturn. And now you got it to, by your "praise Jesus brother". Once you praise Jesus, no one, and I mean no one, can pluck you out of his hands. In this way Jesus made sure his flock would increase while the children of the devil decrease. And this is a secret method and tactical manuever used by street preachers as they put a notch on their belt for Jesus. Just when you think you can fool a street preacher by invoking the name of Jesus then zap!, in the wink of an eye Jesus got you without you're even knowing you've been captured. How's it feel now knowing that you won't burn in hell?
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Old 02-19-2010, 06:45 PM   #19
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Well, once when I was a kid, my mom made me take my gum out in church. When I stuck it under the pew, it was DoubleMint. When I retrieved it after the service, it had changed into Juicy Fruit!

A miracle!
Now THAT was indeed a miracle. :lol:
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Old 02-19-2010, 06:56 PM   #20
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Some do. Drinking antifreeze, lamp oil, kerosene, is still part of the "holy ghost" meetings among some southern pentecostals. Oh, and snake handling is still popular in the "taking up serpents" ritual. But these are testing proof of their faith, not miracles. If someone recovers from the poisons or snake bite then the rewarded miracle is that they survived.
It's based on a misunderstanding of the aramaic idioms in the New Testament.

Quote:
16:18. "And they will handle snakes,*
and if deadly poison they drink,* it will not affect them."

*16:18.1 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression retained: "Take up snakes," or "Deal with evil people."
*16:18.2 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression retained: "If they drink poison of death," or "Whatever happens to them."


http://www.v-a.com/bible/mark_13-16.html#MARK16
Well of course it is. Just like the idiomatic expression in Matthew 11:1-5. Not many Christians want to argue about Jesus having already raised the dead in that miraculous[magical] resurrection while he was yet alive. (Would that be the first resurrection on which the second death hath no power? I think it must be.) If I point that out to them, they become so irate you'd think they were ready to burn me alive. Not to mention it gets worse when I tell them they are an atheist and I can prove it and prove that Jesus was an atheist to. I probably should stop pointing this out to them as I fear I might get physically hurt. But if I don't do my part as an atheist then how are we to get rid of all the BS in these religious death-cults? So instead of being a patriot to politics, I intend to be a patriot to atheism. It offers more hope for mankind.
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