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Old 08-22-2008, 10:23 AM   #1
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Default Passover lamb roasted on a cross split from Chili split from Jesus a Jew?

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Originally Posted by spamandham View Post
In what sense was a cross a Jewish symbol? I can understand solar origins of the cross symbol, and I can understand the crucifixion origins of the symbol...and I can even understand how crucifixion fits nicely with Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53....but why should we think ancient Jews would find the symbol meaningful?
Fwiw, Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho) seems to allude to a Jewish Passover tradition in the temple of Jerusalem, where the sacrificial lamb would be roasted on a cross:
. . . and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb. And the two goats which were ordered to be offered during the fast, of which one was sent away as the scape [goat], and the other sacrificed, were similarly declarative of the two appearances of Christ: . . .
Perhaps this was just a practical way to roast the lamb and Justin makes a meal of it (no pun intended) in terms of his 'Christ symbolism', or it was possibly done as an ancient practice for an allusion to the lamb in the sky on the cross (Aries at Passover). Or something else.
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Old 08-22-2008, 11:07 AM   #2
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Thanks Cesc for bringing that forward.

Here we have Justin Martyr speaking of this lamb and cross as if it were well known that the lamb/cross symbolism preceded Christianity, and he felt the need to claim it was forshadowing of what Christ would go through to Trypho. This greatly strengthens arguments that the passion is symbolic rather than historical, and would be airtight as far as I'm concerned if there is evidence of sacrificial lambs on a cross in Jewish tradition prior to the Gospels...
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Old 08-22-2008, 02:52 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by spamandham View Post
Thanks Cesc for bringing that forward.

Here we have Justin Martyr speaking of this lamb and cross as if it were well known that the lamb/cross symbolism preceded Christianity, and he felt the need to claim it was forshadowing of what Christ would go through to Trypho. This greatly strengthens arguments that the passion is symbolic rather than historical, and would be airtight as far as I'm concerned if there is evidence of sacrificial lambs on a cross in Jewish tradition prior to the Gospels...
It's note like it appears anywhere in Jewish literature....
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Old 08-22-2008, 03:12 PM   #4
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Thanks Cesc for bringing that forward.

Here we have Justin Martyr speaking of this lamb and cross as if it were well known that the lamb/cross symbolism preceded Christianity,

I fail to see that "here" we have Justin speaking of such things in any such way. Quite the contrary, he is speaking of a symbolism that that Jews were not, and could not possibly be aware of before Jesus' crucifixion.

And in the case of the passover lamb, which according to Justin is already dead when spitted and does not die on a spit, let alone on one shaped like a cross -- how else would you spit it except with a 4 pronged spit if you wanted to dress it up as it was supposed to be dressed up?

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Old 08-22-2008, 09:24 PM   #5
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And in the case of the passover lamb, which according to Justin is already dead when spitted and does not die on a spit, let alone on one shaped like a cross -- how else would you spit it except with a 4 pronged spit if you wanted to dress it up as it was supposed to be dressed up?

Jeffrey
If you agree that dressing it up in the way it was supposed to be dressed up would require a 4 prong spit in the shape of a cross, then what is the objection to the idea that Jews would be familiar with the symbolism of a sacrificial lamb on a cross?

And if they had never noticed, then why would Justin bring it up to Trypho (a Jew) claiming it was a foreshadowing of Christ's crucifixion?

I'm not following you at all.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spamandham View Post
Thanks Cesc for bringing that forward.

Here we have Justin Martyr speaking of this lamb and cross as if it were well known that the lamb/cross symbolism preceded Christianity, and he felt the need to claim it was forshadowing of what Christ would go through to Trypho. This greatly strengthens arguments that the passion is symbolic rather than historical, and would be airtight as far as I'm concerned if there is evidence of sacrificial lambs on a cross in Jewish tradition prior to the Gospels...
It's note like it appears anywhere in Jewish literature....
Are you sure?

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Lesson 7: The Altar Of Burnt Offering Written by Darwin Whitman, M. Rel. Edu. In Exodus 27:1-8, we see God instructing Moses on how to build this – the largest article of furniture in the. It measured seven by seven feet, making it “foursquare” (Margin). Its height was 3 cubits, but there was “a grate of network of brass,” and it extended from the outside, down under- neith, and back up inside, 1 ½ cubits, or “midway” the height of the altar.
The Brazen Altar had four horns – one upon each corner of the altar – upon which the lamb was tied (“bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar” Psalms 118:27). And the grates had staves to carry it, as well as utensils, for the work that was carried on at it; pans to receive the ashes, shovels, basons, fleshooks, and firepans: all made of brass.
To appreciate the significance of the altar, and its meaning in symbols, to man’s spiritual growth, and development – we must note carefully the construction of the Altar of Sacrifice.

In Exodus 27:1-8, we see God instructing Moses on how to build this – the largest article of furniture in the. It measured seven by seven feet, making it “foursquare” (Margin). Its height was 3 cubits, but there was “a grate of network of brass,” and it extended from the outside, down under- neith, and back up inside, 1 ½ cubits, or “midway” the height of the altar.
The Brazen Altar had four horns – one upon each corner of the altar – upon which the lamb was tied (“bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar” Psalms 118:27). And the grates had staves to carry it, as well as utensils, for the work that was carried on at it; pans to receive the ashes, shovels, basons, fleshooks, and firepans: all made of brass.
To appreciate the significance of the altar, and its meaning in symbols, to man’s spiritual growth, and development – we must note carefully the construction of the Altar of Sacrifice. The first thing we note is – it was made of Wood, overlaid with Brass. And that is significant, because Wood, in Scriptures, represents the Works of Man, or, “Humanism.” Paul says it this way: “If any man build upon this foundation (works from this premise) gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Ever man’s work shall be made manifest…it shall be revealed by fire (tests and trials); and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is” 1 Corinthians 3:12, 13. And it is no leap of the mind to immediately see that, should wood be directly exposed to the fire, with no shield, or protection, it would be reduced to ashes. So the Brass must represent that shield, that protection; and so it does.
Now, there is no such element in the earth called Brass. Rather, it is formed by the process known as amalgamation, or the combining, of two separate elements, such as, Zinc and Copper – which, when blended, becomes Brass. Webster says it is the combination of “a less valuable metal with a more valuable one.” And as such, Brass, the primary metal in the Court of the Sanctuary, represents the experience of Christ here on earth. Philippians 2:6 and 7 speaks of Christ, who (1) “thought it not robbery to be equal with God (the more valuable),” but “was made in the likeness of men (the less valuable). And Paul shows us the process by which these two were blended: “For It became him (God the Father)…to make the captain of their salvation (Jesus Christ) PERFECT THROUGH SUFFERINGS.” And the purpose of that is, “that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God” Hebrews 2:9, 10, 17. So here we see Divinity, mixed with Humanity, in the crucible of Sufferings, and it resulted in a Perfect High Priest in things pertaining to God!
And it is because of that combination, represented as Brass, that men today can declare: “I can do all things through Christ, which strengthened, th me” Philippians 4:13.
And we must remember, this experience of Christ, took place on Earth, not in heaven. And the Court of the Sanctuary represents this earth: “Heaven is my throne, Earth is my footstool” Isaiah 66:1.
They made horns for the Altar of Sacrifice (Exodus 27:2), and placed one at each of the four corners. Horns represent power: “And (David) said, The Lord is my Rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, THE HORN OF MY SALVATION, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence” 2 Samuel 22:2, 3. But the Horns were helpless without the Blood of Jesus Christ – “the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the world” Revelation 13:8! “WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD (there) is NO REMISSION (Deliverance, Pardon, or Freedom from the sins we confess)” Hebrews 9:22. “IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins; and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” 1 John 1:9.
And what was placed upon the Altar of Sacrifice, carried the sins confessed over it, and the end result of that offering was Ashes. And so at the end of this world of sin – God promises: “Ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I shall do this” Malachi 4:3.
The purpose of the Altar of Sacrifice is to meet the demands of God’s justice: “The wages of sin is Death” Romans 6:23. But the verse does not end there! it goes on to say: “BUT”! “but the GIFT OF GOD is ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.” And that is shown in the construction of the Altar also! The board walls around the Altar are 3 cubits high. The “grate,” upon which the offering is laid on the fire, is 1 ½ cubits high. And in Psalms 103:12, it says: “As far as the East (where the Altar of Sacrifice is located) is from the West (where God’s throne, the Ark of the Covenant, where Justice is decreed, is located), SO FAR HATH HE REMOVED OUR TRANSGRESSIONS FROM US.” For God told Moses to build his Ark of the Covenant 1 ½ cubits high, because, in His mind, Justice and Mercy are Equal! “Mercy and truth are met together (in the person of Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest); righteousness (as required by the Law in the Ark of the Covenant) and peace (from the deliverance from our sins – which “is the transgression of the Law” 1 John 3:4 - that were confessed, thereby transferred to the Lamb), have kissed each other” Psalms 85:10.
And the man, or woman (represented by Wood), who confesses their sins, have now transferred them to Jesus, and His Divine Nature becomes our shield (represented by Brass) from the consuming fire that reduces all to ashes! And that is why God told Moses to keep some ashes between the Front Gate of the Court, and the Altar of Sacrifice (Leviticus 1:16) – so any one passing by, or entering in; believers, or unbelievers, represented by the “mixed multitude” (Exodus 12:38), would know that sin does pay a wage – death - but like the ashes: “He will make an UTTER END: affliction (SIN) SHALL NOT RISE UP THE SECOND TIME” Nahum 1:9!
“Behold (at the Altar of Sacrifice) the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” John 1:29. And He is asking: “that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service,” Romans 12:1, meaning; Will you be eternally separated FROM YOUR SINS? Or, will you be eternally separated WITH YOUR SINS (Leviticus 16:30; 23:27-29)?
http://sanctuaryapplied.org/Joomla/i...ask=view&id=31
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