Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 10-14-2012, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Several significant studies of literacy have appeared in recent years showing just how low literacy rates were in antiquity. The most frequently cited study is by Columbia professor William Harris in a book titled Ancient Literacy. By thoroughly examining all the surviving evidence, Harris draws the compelling though surprising conclusion that in the very best of times in the ancient world, only about 10 percent of the population could read at all and possibly copy out writing on a page. Far fewer than this, of course, could compose a sentence, let alone a story, let alone an entire book. And who were the people in this 10 percent? They were the upper-class elite who had the time, money, and leisure to afford an education. This is not an apt description of Jesus’s disciples. They were not upper-crust aristocrats.

In Roman Palestine the situation was even bleaker. The most thorough examination of literacy in Palestine is by a professor of Jewish studies at the University of London, Catherine Hezser, who shows that in the days of Jesus probably only 3 percent of Jews in Palestine were literate. Once again, these would be the people who could read and maybe write their names and copy words. Far fewer could compose sentences, paragraphs, chapters, and books. And once again, these would have been the urban elites.

Source: Ehrman, Bart D. (2012-03-20). Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth (Kindle Locations 702-712). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

I fundamentally disagree with this.

Mr Ehrman and that professor are wrong, and implicitly racist against Judaism. Think about it. We are very likely with Judaism looking at a very different group to the norm, an outlier. We have plenty of evidence for that. These tribes were different, not only did they not eat Pork and worship one god they also studied a book. I cannot recall other religions having this set of factors. They were also not that hierarchical.

A very small group of people getting nobel prizes more than anyone else does not happen over night - that is millenia of accretions at work.

And if one checks, who were the advisers to the kings and emperors over the centuries? I am sorry, Judaism had far higher levels of literacy than equivalent peoples. There was a Homer Simpson effect. OK there were many Homers, but there were also Lisa's in the families.

outhouse · 10-14-2012, 09:56 AM

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Mr Ehrman and that professor are wrong, and implicitly racist against Judaism.

this is due to your ignorance on the topic. Cultural anthropology has come a long way in these studies.

add to the fact there is nothing racist at all.

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These tribes were different

what tribe's in the first century are you even talking about?

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not only did they not eat Pork and worship one god

not even relevant to your case

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they also studied a book

what sources do you have for this.

just so you know, oral tradition was valued more then scripture in that time.

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I cannot recall other religions having this set of factors

ignorance again.

not eating pork was more of a geographical location thing, and not unique to jews looking over a thousand years in the past. Other people did the same.

polytheism lasted until 200 BC ish despite king Josiah starting monotheism much earlier in the period of second Isaiah, so were talking about a very short stint in monotheism. in reality they worshipped El and Yahweh both even in jesus time even though they marged all Els attributes to Yahweh when Ezra redacted the books.

Israelites were also multi cultural in the first century with multiple sects who worshipped differently and had different beliefs.

all very simular to other poor oppressed people.

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And if one checks, who were the advisers to the kings and emperors over the centuries?

not even relevant to the topic

in all we are talking about a oppressed poor race of people, living on the very edge of existance. Things were so bad under roman oppression, people like jesus who said the end is nigh!!! and that the world was going to end were popular.

they knew going up against the romans was suicide, but they had a history of doing it anyway.

ApostateAbe · 10-18-2012, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Several significant studies of literacy have appeared in recent years showing just how low literacy rates were in antiquity. The most frequently cited study is by Columbia professor William Harris in a book titled Ancient Literacy. By thoroughly examining all the surviving evidence, Harris draws the compelling though surprising conclusion that in the very best of times in the ancient world, only about 10 percent of the population could read at all and possibly copy out writing on a page. Far fewer than this, of course, could compose a sentence, let alone a story, let alone an entire book. And who were the people in this 10 percent? They were the upper-class elite who had the time, money, and leisure to afford an education. This is not an apt description of Jesus’s disciples. They were not upper-crust aristocrats.

In Roman Palestine the situation was even bleaker. The most thorough examination of literacy in Palestine is by a professor of Jewish studies at the University of London, Catherine Hezser, who shows that in the days of Jesus probably only 3 percent of Jews in Palestine were literate. Once again, these would be the people who could read and maybe write their names and copy words. Far fewer could compose sentences, paragraphs, chapters, and books. And once again, these would have been the urban elites.

Source: Ehrman, Bart D. (2012-03-20). Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth (Kindle Locations 702-712). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

I fundamentally disagree with this.

Mr Ehrman and that professor are wrong, and implicitly racist against Judaism. Think about it. We are very likely with Judaism looking at a very different group to the norm, an outlier. We have plenty of evidence for that. These tribes were different, not only did they not eat Pork and worship one god they also studied a book. I cannot recall other religions having this set of factors. They were also not that hierarchical.

A very small group of people getting nobel prizes more than anyone else does not happen over night - that is millenia of accretions at work.

And if one checks, who were the advisers to the kings and emperors over the centuries? I am sorry, Judaism had far higher levels of literacy than equivalent peoples. There was a Homer Simpson effect. OK there were many Homers, but there were also Lisa's in the families.

You argue as though the conclusion about the Jewish literacy rate is based on the literacy rate of the whole Roman world (and inferring racism because of Ehrman's faulty presumption that Jews had average literacy rates?), but I think Ehrman's quote you supplied informs us that the conclusion is based on evidence specific to the Jewish community. Much of Catherine Hezser's book is online if you would like to review it.

Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine

Minimalist · 10-18-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

A very small group of people getting nobel prizes more than anyone else does not happen over night - that is millenia of accretions at work.

Um...you can't be serious?

The majority of populations in the ancient world....pretty much everywhere... were so involved with subsistence activities that they had no time...nor need... for literacy. It is an expensive skill to acquire and books, which had to be copied by hand, were expensive and available only to the elites who could afford them.

Are you seriously trying to construct a line between ancient peasant Judaean farmers and modern university professors?

From the conclusion of Harris' book.

Quote:

The clearest sign that literacy of this kind existed is
provided by the rules which governed Athenian ostracism, at least from the 480s onwards: they seem to indicate that at least
15% of the adult male population reached the level of semi-literacy or some higher level, and that a very substantial proportion
of this 15% was able to write easily.Therefore,we can probably take it that 5% or more of the total adult population (including women
and slaves) was literate according to our definition.

And this is in the city of Athens near its peak....5%.

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