Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 09-22-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

If you put yourself into the shoes of the writers, you can clearly see their message is for real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

How can you NOT see Ezekiel prophecized the end of days?

I seriously doubt you've put yourself in the writer's shoes. In order to do that, you have to understand Judaism/Ezekiel's Judaism, Ezekiel's sociological context, and the role of prophecy in Judaism. I seriously doubt you know anything about those three points.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-22-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

You can thank whoever you want. But you need to get educated on Biblical prophecy. :Cheeky:

Hi IBelieveInHymn,

That is sage advice. I have a serious question for you. From early times, Christians have been expecting the end, and up until now, they have always been wrong. Why are you so certain that you are right this time?
Many Christians in the second century CE looked for a literal fulfillment of the eschaton in their day. Many of them were chilianists; they expected a literal thousand year reign of Christ just around the corner. This belief was widespread among the proto-orthodox. Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaues, and Tertullian were all in this camp. Writing in the years following the Second Jewish Revolt (Dial 1.3;9.3; EH 4.19.9) Justin viewed that revolt as an indication that the end was soon.

Montanus expected that the New Jerusalem would descend on his hometown of Pepuza, in Phrygia (central Turkey) sometime around 170 CE. He also had two prophetesses, named Priscilla and Maximilla, who delivered other predictions about times and events.

Indeed, no less an personage than Tertullian believed that the end was so close, that the spires and walls of the New Jerusalem could already be seen hovering in the sky!!

"And the word of the New Prophecy which is a part of our belief, attests how it foretold that there would be for a sign a picture of this very city exhibited. to view previous to its manifestation. This prophecy, indeed, has been very lately fulfilled in an expedition to
the East. For it is evident from the testimony of even heathen witnesses, that in Judaea there was suspended in the sky a city early every morning for forty days. As the day advanced, the entire figure of its walls would wane gradually, and sometimes it would vanish instantly. We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection." Tertullian, AM 3.25.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ullian123.html

If I may say so, the Euprates river decreasing in volume and Russia flying an airplane are pretty lame indicators compared to the Holy City cavorting in the sky. I have collected a whole series of old evangelical pamplets and books from the mid 1970's that argue quite persuasively that the Rapture would have to occur within a generation (40 years) of the founding of Israel in 1948. Woops, missed again! Then the Soviet Union collapsed, and Sept 11, 2001 occured, with new bad guys in the guise of Iraq and Iran. And the same prophecies were reinterpreted afresh to conform to the most recent news cycle.

Are you willing to admit that the most recent cycle of prophecy hunting may also be mistaken?

Best,
Jake

I have read your post thoroughly, and honestly, I cannot come to a conclusion as to why people have cried the end is near. I can sit here and say all day long, "Jesus said, No one knows of that hour or day of the end". But people will still ask me why ancient Christians have preached the end of the world for centuries. The only conclusion I come up is these people were not really well informed about the bible. Jesus did say, live everday as if it's your last day but, I don't think he meant for Christians to preach an exact date of the end. That's just sheer lunacy. And if any atheist disagrees with that, then they are just as loony.

I believe we are in the end of Days as foretold in bible. there are just too many prophecies that are being unfold in our generation. I have explained myself in this forum as to why I believe we are in the end of days. I don't need to list everything.

If you notice. I don't give any exact dates. Because I just don't know. But I'm searching for the signs Jesus told us to watch for.

The signs were just not there in ancient days. The major key to Christ's nearness is the rebirth of Israel, and that wasn't possible until 1948.

The clock began to countdown starting in 1948. Just look at the collapse of mankind since.. This world is in serious deep trouble. American FBI agents just intercepted a plot by two Muslims in N.Y.C to bomb the subway in New York.

What's next? A nuclear bomb in a suitcase that will vaporize 50,000 American people?

This is all signs Christ must come back, and mankind must be destroyed.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-22-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

If you put yourself into the shoes of the writers, you can clearly see their message is for real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

How can you NOT see Ezekiel prophecized the end of days?

I seriously doubt you've put yourself in the writer's shoes. In order to do that, you have to understand Judaism/Ezekiel's Judaism, Ezekiel's sociological context, and the role of prophecy in Judaism. I seriously doubt you know anything about those three points.

I know more than you think about Bible prophecy, and the end of the world, and as of right now, we are witnessing the collapse of mankind.

Just stay tuned to the Middle East chaos, and Iran building a doomsday bomb for Israel because the President of Iran Ahmoud Ahmadinejad wants to user in the Islamic Messiah before he dies. Yes, that's right!! He's a nut-job with a nuclear bomb.

show_no_mercy · 09-22-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

I seriously doubt you've put yourself in the writer's shoes. In order to do that, you have to understand Judaism/Ezekiel's Judaism, Ezekiel's sociological context, and the role of prophecy in Judaism. I seriously doubt you know anything about those three points.

I know more than you think about Bible prophecy, and the end of the world, and as of right now, we are witnessing the collapse of mankind.

You haven't demonstrated any knowledge of the role of prophecy in Judaism. You're projecting your Christianity onto Ezekiel. You might as well say that Ezekiel's favorite car is a Honda Civic.

spin · 09-22-2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Ezekiel is not a prophecy of "end times", it's a description of contemporary events of those days. It isn't a valid form of hermeneutics to simply pick and choose bits and pieces of the Bible as convenient to support apocalyptic presuppositions

Ezekiel 14:12 says I will gather all Nations in Jerusalem to battle, and this will be the plague I shall send upon the enemies of Israel; Their flesh shall rot as they stand on their own two feet, Their eyeballs will rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouth.

How can you NOT see Ezekiel prophecized the end of days?

When you abuse Ezezkiel you can force him to say what you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Russia didn't exist in the days of Ezekiel, or John for that matter. Russia is the Mighty army from the North, as foretold in the bible.

Russia has nothing to do with Ezekiel. This is simply cold war nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I never said it was from Revelation... Here is my exact post;

Yes, Ezekiel does explain the mighty army from the North. We must understand the location where this was being written. From Ezekiel's stand point. Russia is North of Israel, and they will have the strength of the iron. We must understand in modern times that Russia didn't exist in the days of the bible...

The only insanity is those people who want to ignore that Russia is now supply Iran with weapons.

How can you misunderstand "the mighty north will supply persia"

Where exactly do you believe Ezekiel says this??

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Thank Rah I don't suffer from this type of 'education'.

You can thank whoever you want. But you need to get educated on Biblical prophecy. :Cheeky:

The irony was sadly unintentional.

spin

IBelieveInHymn · 09-22-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I know more than you think about Bible prophecy, and the end of the world, and as of right now, we are witnessing the collapse of mankind.

You haven't demonstrated any knowledge of the role of prophecy in Judaism. You're projecting your Christianity onto Ezekiel. You might as well say that Ezekiel's favorite car is a Honda Civic.

Ezekiel was a message to the world, not just for the Jews. Ezekiel explains around the hour the end will come. He said the day you see the great mighty northern army supplying peria with weapons, the hour is near. The Book of Revelation said the Euphrates river drying up is near the hour. and Jeremiah explains the rebirth of Israel as the end of days.

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/prophecy.htm

show_no_mercy · 09-22-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

You haven't demonstrated any knowledge of the role of prophecy in Judaism. You're projecting your Christianity onto Ezekiel. You might as well say that Ezekiel's favorite car is a Honda Civic.

Ezekiel was a message to the world, not just for the Jews. Ezekiel explains around the hour the end will come. He said the day you see the great mighty northern army supplying peria with weapons, the hour is near. The Book of Revelation said the Euphrates river drying up is near the hour. and Jeremiah explains the rebirth of Israel as the end of days.

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/prophecy.htm

This link you provided completely betrays your ignornace of prophecy in Judaism. Maybe you should spend some time learning about Judaism and not simply what Christians have bastardized.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-22-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

When you abuse Ezezkiel you can force him to say what you want.

Believe what you want.

Quote:

Russia has nothing to do with Ezekiel. This is simply cold war nonsense.

Who is the great northern army?

Quote:

Where exactly do you believe Ezekiel says this??

Ezekiel 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Quote:

The irony was sadly unintentional.

:Cheeky:

Johnny Skeptic · 09-22-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The major key to Christ's nearness is the rebirth of Israel, and that wasn't possible until 1948.

Not likely. Consider the following Scriptures:

Genesis 17:1-8

1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4. As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Obviously, the partition of Palestine in 1948 was not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy since verse 8 says "all of the land of Canaan." From 1948 through today, the Jews have not occupied and/or controlled anywhere near all of the land of Canaan, and certainly not as an everlasting possession since there is not any historical evidence that Hebrews have ever occupied all of the land of Canaan.

The words "everlasting possession" surely indicated to ancient Hebrews that their descendants would have all of Canaan as an everlasting possession for many generations in this life, certainly not in a future life. If these are the end times, as you believe is the case, there will not be enough time for Jews to have Canaan as a possession for many generations, especially since Jews must have "all" of the land of Canaan in order to fulfill Genesis 17:8.

You should acquaint yourself with the issue of "self-fulfilled" prophecies. One link that discusses self-fulfilled prophecies is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy. Consider the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior. Although examples of such prophecies can be found in literature as far back as ancient Greece and ancient India, it is 20th-century sociologist Robert K. Merton who is credited with coining the expression "self-fulfilling prophecy" and formalizing its structure and consequences. In his book Social Theory and Social Structure, Merton gives as a feature of the self-fulfilling prophecy: Ie: when Roxanna falsely believes that her marriage will fail and fears such failure will occur that it actually causes the marriage to fail.

"The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning."

In other words, a prophecy declared as truth when it is actually false may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the once-false prophecy.

Logically, all that it takes to self-fulfill a prophecy is desire, and sufficient power. That is just simple common sense. If you predicted that you would go to school on Monday, and you went to school on Monday, all that it took for you to "fulfill" your prediction was desire and sufficient power, which you had, and certainly not supernatural power.

Regarding the Partition of Palestine in 1948, as far as I recall, the vote was 33nations for the partition, and 13 nations against the partition. Regarding the 33 nations that voted for the partition, every government except for one government, the Russian government, was predominantly Christian, in other words, a stacked deck based upon the Bible, and of the 13 nations that voted against the partition, only one government, the Greek government, was predominantly Christian, but according to one source that I forget, only a nominally Christian government.

No rational person would claim that religious based bias and military power did not have anything to do with the Partition of Palestine in 1948.

In your opinion, how many failed Bible prophecies should it take to discredit the Bible? One interesting failed Bible prophecy is where Ezekiel falsely claimed that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. Another is where the author of Genesis falsely predicted that a global flood would occur.

jakejonesiv · 09-22-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Hi IBelieveInHymn,

That is sage advice. I have a serious question for you. From early times, Christians have been expecting the end, and up until now, they have always been wrong. Why are you so certain that you are right this time?
Many Christians in the second century CE looked for a literal fulfillment of the eschaton in their day. Many of them were chilianists; they expected a literal thousand year reign of Christ just around the corner. This belief was widespread among the proto-orthodox. Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaues, and Tertullian were all in this camp. Writing in the years following the Second Jewish Revolt (Dial 1.3;9.3; EH 4.19.9) Justin viewed that revolt as an indication that the end was soon.

Montanus expected that the New Jerusalem would descend on his hometown of Pepuza, in Phrygia (central Turkey) sometime around 170 CE. He also had two prophetesses, named Priscilla and Maximilla, who delivered other predictions about times and events.

Indeed, no less an personage than Tertullian believed that the end was so close, that the spires and walls of the New Jerusalem could already be seen hovering in the sky!!

"And the word of the New Prophecy which is a part of our belief, attests how it foretold that there would be for a sign a picture of this very city exhibited. to view previous to its manifestation. This prophecy, indeed, has been very lately fulfilled in an expedition to
the East. For it is evident from the testimony of even heathen witnesses, that in Judaea there was suspended in the sky a city early every morning for forty days. As the day advanced, the entire figure of its walls would wane gradually, and sometimes it would vanish instantly. We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection." Tertullian, AM 3.25.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ullian123.html

If I may say so, the Euprates river decreasing in volume and Russia flying an airplane are pretty lame indicators compared to the Holy City cavorting in the sky. I have collected a whole series of old evangelical pamplets and books from the mid 1970's that argue quite persuasively that the Rapture would have to occur within a generation (40 years) of the founding of Israel in 1948. Woops, missed again! Then the Soviet Union collapsed, and Sept 11, 2001 occured, with new bad guys in the guise of Iraq and Iran. And the same prophecies were reinterpreted afresh to conform to the most recent news cycle.

Are you willing to admit that the most recent cycle of prophecy hunting may also be mistaken?

Best,
Jake

I have read your post thoroughly, and honestly, I cannot come to a conclusion as to why people have cried the end is near. I can sit here and say all day long, "Jesus said, No one knows of that hour or day of the end". But people will still ask me why ancient Christians have preached the end of the world for centuries. The only conclusion I come up is these people were not really well informed about the bible. Jesus did say, live everday as if it's your last day but, I don't think he meant for Christians to preach an exact date of the end. That's just sheer lunacy. And if any atheist disagrees with that, then they are just as loony.

I believe we are in the end of Days as foretold in bible. there are just too many prophecies that are being unfold in our generation. I have explained myself in this forum as to why I believe we are in the end of days. I don't need to list everything.

If you notice. I don't give any exact dates. Because I just don't know. But I'm searching for the signs Jesus told us to watch for.

The signs were just not there in ancient days. The major key to Christ's nearness is the rebirth of Israel, and that wasn't possible until 1948.

The clock began to countdown starting in 1948. Just look at the collapse of mankind since.. This world is in serious deep trouble. American FBI agents just intercepted a plot by two Muslims in N.Y.C to bomb the subway in New York.

What's next? A nuclear bomb in a suitcase that will vaporize 50,000 American people?

This is all signs Christ must come back, and mankind must be destroyed.

Hi IBelieveInHymn,

Thanks for the answer. But it is not just those who interpret the Bible. It is the Bible texts themsleves. Many texts indicate that the end is near, or at hand. Yet almost 20 centuries have passed and still "not yet." And if you respond that "a thousand years is a day to the Lord" then why can't your own interpretations be thousands of years off in the future?

I am curious.. How do you interpret the following passages?

Rev. 1:3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is near.

Mark 14:62. And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 9:1. And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 9:30. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Revelation 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him.

Best,
Jake

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