Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 06-09-2008, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBrown

I don't know WHY you think you have money on your property but I have looked through my peep stones and see that you DO. Email my your address and $1,000 ready money and I will tell you where it is!

Remember - I have these stones...

So they were talking about buried bags of cash?

Such rubes are too stupid for pity. :banghead:

gstafleu · 06-09-2008, 10:50 AM

It seems that Smith may have been a con artist, which throws some light on the question "fraud or hallucination." From

Joseph_Smith,_Jr.:

Quote:

In 1826, Smith was convicted of being a "disorderly person" and an "impostor" in a court in Bainbridge, New York. However, details surrounding the case are still disputed by some historians. The court record states the conviction took place in March 1826, however, Smith was likely not present at the trial, and possibly not even notified of it. Convictions of people for a crime they committed after they no longer lived in an area were rare during the time. In addition, the record appears to have been either post-dated, inserted later, or otherwise tampered with contemporaneously, which leads to the disputes alluded to, although most Mormon and non-Mormon scholars believe the conviction did happen.

Given that this is religion, one would have to research if the "some historians" who dispute the case are Mormons or not. But since "most Mormon and non-Mormon scholars believe the conviction did happen" maybe we can go with it. (1826 was just before he started on BoM)

Gerard Stafleu

Toto · 06-09-2008, 12:22 PM

This thread is actually a little too modern for this forum. Moving to GRD.

Autonemesis · 06-09-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Over at Oberlin College in Ohio, there is said to be an original manuscript that resembles the storyline of the Book of Mormon, which is known to have been written by someone unrelated to, and predating, JS's revelations. The idea here is that JS may have borrowed from this very work to produce the BoM. However, I have also heard recently that the provenance of this work is now called somewhat into question, which kind of negates its use as a kind of "smoking gun".

Are you talking about

View of the Hebrews by Ethan Smith? Or

Solomon Spalding's Manuscript Story?

In any case, the notion that native Americans were descendants of a lost tribe of Israel was a popular meme in Joseph Smith's time. Whatever else you might say about the Book of Mormon, the idea of a Hebrew origin for the natives living in the new world was definitely NOT original to him.

Selsaral · 06-09-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

hallucination or purposeful fraud?

Why not a 3d choice? "Nutty as a fruit cake."

It's entirely possible. And although I'd probably choose choice #2 in this particular situation, there is also a 4th choice that appears to apply to other religions. "It's human nature to have mystical experiences and mistakenly believe that they involve something other than one's own imagination".

Apocolips · 06-10-2008, 07:11 AM

Hola!

The Book of Mormon is one of the biggest religious frauds of all time. It amazes me that people were drawn into the religion in the first place. It is a fascinating (yet a total monkeycrap belief system) story.

The Book of Mormon is riddled with inaccuracies and fairy tales.

The Book of Mormon talks about great civilizations in North America that doesn't exist. In the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi Nephi teaches his followers to build buildings and work in iron, copper, brass, steel, gold, and silver. But evidence is lacking for such pre-Columbian metallurgy, and it would be well beyond the capabilities of a handful of immigrants from the ancient Near-East around 590 BCE. Surely there must be some ruins of these cities SOMEWHERE when there are ruins a thousand years older or more in most parts of the World (Egypt, Greece, Israel, Iran, China etc.)

The Mormons believe that Native Americans (N.A.) were decendents of Jews (Middle Easterners) when there is absolutely no DNA links between NA's and Sephardic or Ashenkanazi Jews. It is quite clear from looking at a NA that they came from Asia.

The Book Of Mormon talks about flora and fauna that did not exist in the New World until the arrival of the Europeans.

Reformed Egyptian does not exist.

The Book of Mormon talks about the Bible in 600 BC, when the Bible wasnt written and put together for another 1,000 years.

The word "Adieu" is in the Book of Mormon. It's a French word, a language that did not come into being for about another 1,500 years or so.

Book of Mormon online on Skeptics..http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

Senor

nogods4me · 06-10-2008, 08:09 AM

Quote:

O’ by the way – he put the plates into a straw hat and burred his head into it, with the glasses on (heard enough yet? BS alarm going off yet?).

I always wondered if this was the origin of the phrase 'Talking through your hat"

john_v_h · 06-10-2008, 05:21 PM

Certainly Joseph Smith was the L. Ron Hubbard of his day. The question is: who's next?

Autonemesis · 06-10-2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john_v_h

Certainly Joseph Smith was the L. Ron Hubbard of his day.

There are a lot more Mormons than there are Scientologists. Joseph Smith hasn't been eclipsed by Hubbard. If anything, Hubbard is the wannabe Smith of our time.

driver8 · 06-11-2008, 12:10 PM

This website is no longer. It was apparently run by a former mormon and I grabbed a bit of content before it disappeared.

Here's some of the history log that relates to your question:

Quote:

1805 Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the organization now called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormon Church), is born on December 23rd in Sharon, Vermont, the fourth child of Lucy Mack and Joseph Smith.
1816 The Smith's move to the Palmyra, NY area (about 40 miles east of Rochester)
1820 In the spring Joseph Smith, Jr. at the age of 14 allegedly receives a visit from God the Father and Jesus Christ who tells him all churches are wrong, their creeds are an abomination and the professors of those creeds are corrupt.
1823 September, the Angel Moroni allegedly visits Joseph in his bedroom three times one September night, as the start of a series of lessons that results in Joseph's getting gold plates that were allegedly buried in Hill Cumorah, just a few miles south of Palmyra, in Manchester, NY.
1826 Court records of Chenango County, State of New York, People vs Joseph Smith The Glass Looker, March 20, 1826 reveal that he was brought to trial on charges of money digging, using a "peep stone" to locate buried hidden treasures.
1827 Joseph allegedly receives from Angel Moroni the gold plates that were buried in Hill Cumorah. Written on them in "Reformed Egyptian" is the history of a previously unknown New World people. With the help of God Joseph translates the writing into what is now the Book of Mormon.
1829 May 15, John the Baptist allegedly gives the Aaronic Priesthood to Joseph Smith and his scribe Oliver Cowdery as part of the restoration of God's Church on Earth - authority that had been lost shortly after Jesus died.
1829 Probably in the summer, as a continuation of the restoration of God's Church, the apostles Peter, James and John allegedly give Joseph and Oliver the Melchizedek Priesthood.
1830 Book of Mormon is printed by the Grandin Print Shop in Palmyra, NY.
1830 April 6, the Mormon Church is organized with a handful of people as God's one true Church on earth. At this time it is named The Church of Christ.
1831 Mormon Church moves to Kirtland, Ohio. At its peak in the 1830's Kirtland reaches a population of about 3,200 - about equal to nearby Cleveland.
1832 Mormons start settlements in Missouri.
1833 A collection of 65 alleged revelations from God to Joseph Smith are published as the Book of Commandments. Only 65 are included as the printing press and facilities at Zion (Independence, Missouri) are destroyed before it can be completed. (Seventy one had been given up to this date.)
1834 The name of the Church is changed to The Church of the Latter Day Saints.
1835 About this time the practice of polygamy starts in private, but is publicly denied.
1835 The 1833 Book of Commandments is updated with new revelations, and old ones are modified (with no indication they are changed), the resulting work published under the new title Doctrine and Covenants. This book has two parts. The first part is called "Theology On The Doctrine Of The Church Of The Latter Day Saints" (better known as the "Lectures on Faith" [These were removed from the Doctrine and Covenants starting with the 1921 edition.]). The second part is named "Covenants and Commandments." Section 101:4 forbids the practice of polygamy.
1838 Joseph leaves Kirtland and goes to Far West, Missouri, fleeing the wrath of the law and disgruntled members.
1838 The name of the Church is changed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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06-09-2008, 12:22 PM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This thread is actually a little too modern for this forum. Moving to GRD.

06-10-2008, 07:11 AM	#16
Apocolips Banned Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Hangzhou, China Posts: 2,402	Hola! The Book of Mormon is one of the biggest religious frauds of all time. It amazes me that people were drawn into the religion in the first place. It is a fascinating (yet a total monkeycrap belief system) story. The Book of Mormon is riddled with inaccuracies and fairy tales. The Book of Mormon talks about great civilizations in North America that doesn't exist. In the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi Nephi teaches his followers to build buildings and work in iron, copper, brass, steel, gold, and silver. But evidence is lacking for such pre-Columbian metallurgy, and it would be well beyond the capabilities of a handful of immigrants from the ancient Near-East around 590 BCE. Surely there must be some ruins of these cities SOMEWHERE when there are ruins a thousand years older or more in most parts of the World (Egypt, Greece, Israel, Iran, China etc.) The Mormons believe that Native Americans (N.A.) were decendents of Jews (Middle Easterners) when there is absolutely no DNA links between NA's and Sephardic or Ashenkanazi Jews. It is quite clear from looking at a NA that they came from Asia. The Book Of Mormon talks about flora and fauna that did not exist in the New World until the arrival of the Europeans. Reformed Egyptian does not exist. The Book of Mormon talks about the Bible in 600 BC, when the Bible wasnt written and put together for another 1,000 years. The word "Adieu" is in the Book of Mormon. It's a French word, a language that did not come into being for about another 1,500 years or so. Book of Mormon online on Skeptics..http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm Senor

06-10-2008, 05:21 PM	#18
john_v_h Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,760	Certainly Joseph Smith was the L. Ron Hubbard of his day. The question is: who's next?

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