Vorkosigan

Are you sure? mark 14:21 has pretty much the same idea. Maybe I miscopied something...

Hell yes.

Peter Kirby

Woops, there it is. Scratch that. (I misread the meaning of a comment in a secondary source on Matthew.)

best,
Peter Kirby

Jaguar Prince

A Xtian theology without hell is like a Xtian church without boundaries, which means that hell is an indispensable part of the system. It is not for nothing that the Church condemned Origenism.

One of the basic rules for understanding the dynamics of groups in sociology is to recognize that any group defines itself through exclusion of other groups. A is defined by non-A. If A and non-A are not clearly separated, A ceases to exist.

Who wants to cease to exist?

Abolishing hell would also have horrendous consequences for morality. A God that doesn't punish people for doing wrong or believing the wrong thing would allow chaos to spread in human society. At least this is what most Xtians believe.

I wonder why we keep trying to make the Bible sound better than it really is. Is it honest to pretend that the exclusivist hell passages don't really matter? Or is it that the universalist message is an esoteric doctrine for the more advanced?

I wonder why this constant endeavor to back one's convictions with the words of a holy book. Can't we just believe that God is unconditional love because we see that this is the only tenable and really moral position, not because it is written somewhere?

Anyway, this notion that God saves or condemns is itself badly in need of rational justification. Is man really totally dependent on a superhuman entity called "God"? Does God really take interest in what happens to us? What if it is us who create our destiny, not God?

Universalism and its opposite twin are all based on dualistic concepts of God and mankind and on the notion of God's omnipotence and man's total powerlessness.

I question the validity of such assumptions.

Jag

Chris Weimer

Would you care to point out exactly where the Bible says that Hell exists and that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will go there?

Jaguar Prince

Jhn 3:18 5:29 8:34-35 9:39 12:40 12-48

Matt 5:22 5:29,30 10:28 11:23 16:18 18:9 23:33

Mark 16:16

Luke 12:5 16:23

Chris Weimer

::: oops, wrong thread, will post my answer in a minute :::

Mods, can you delete this post?

Chris Weimer

Mark 16:16 - I'm sorry, but there is still dispute on whether Mark 16 is original, and I for one hold that it is not.

Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9, 23:33 - Gehenna - an interesting note on the origins of Gehenna, Gehenna was the part of the city where all the rubbish was. To rid the trash, they always kept a fire burning, thus the metaphorical implications of the fires of Geenna. If you look back at where these passages originate, it's Isaiah and Jeremiah, and only used then figuratively. Is it not possible that Jesus was using metaphorical language to describe the consequences of these actions. If he truly meant it to be literally, can you imagine the theological implications of damnation to those who say "Thou fool"?

Matthew 11:23 - Nothing there about a hell for mortals. Maybe you should try looking at the original Greek. Hades was the underworld, thus the previous statement using ouranos which literally meant sky, thus you get City -> Sky -> Underworld. Most figurative by any means.

Matthew 16:18 - Once again we have hades here, and no theological implications that is a dwelling place for mortals.

Luke 12:5 - Showing the power of God to do something, if not taken figuratively, I don't know how else to take it.

Luke 16:23 - You quote me a passage about hell from a parable that Jesus told?

I'll post a follow up with John here soon.

Jaguar Prince

Don't forget the children of hell of Matt 23:15.

The problem with the NT is that there seems to be a kind of uncertainty about whether the afterword should be described as Gehenna or Hades.

The whole time frame of both universalism and exclusivism is questionable.

Who says history has an end?

Not I.

Please add to the list Matt 3:10-12+7:19+13:40+13:42+13:50+25:41

Because a description of hell occurs in a parable isn't a good reason to dismiss it as unreal. Hell with eternal fire was certainly part of the doctrine of the synoptic Jesus. John's Jesus is different, agreed, but even there you find harsh condemnations. In fact, John also speaks of fire in 15:6. Too bad...

Jag :devil3:

Chris Weimer

John 3:18 - He doesn't really say what "condemnation" is, nor is there something about eternal damnation.

John 5:29 - Good one.

John 8:34-35 - This one actually maintains a separation of sinners from God, something that Christians who don't believe in Hell often maintain that to be what it is.

John 9:39 - Nothing about hell here.

John 12:40 - How interesting, a passage from the Tanakh which doesn't teach Hell (see: Jews).

John 12:48 (I think) - Judgement - nothing about Hell at all.

Let's look at 5:29 again. All it really says is Resurrection of damnation, nothing specifically about Hell, so you can't say for sure what damnation is, however, with the rest of John, Hell is a separation of sinners from God, so I'm inclined to believe that it is also.

Chris Weimer

Matthew 23:15 comes again under the metaphorical use of Gehenna (think about the literal interpretation of "child of hell". It does not compute)