QRUEL

I've had an interesting conversation with my fundie neighbor about the different versions of the ten commandments...His written explanation is below, but it seems very convoluted to me and I was wondering if posters to this board who are much more versed in this type of stuff could help me make sense of it.... please ignore his proselytizing to me...

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

What are they, when and to whom were they given? For what purpose are the Ten Commandments? In the next few minutes we will look at what the scripture has to say to answer these questions.
To start out we will give you the answer and then we will go back and show by the scriptures what God calls the “Ten Commandments”.
The answer is you can find the Ten Commandments in many places in the Bible one is Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. The best way to know what they are would be to ask which ones did God, Christ and Jesus refer to them as. We will later in this study show you specific scriptures that point out just that. The Ten commandments are of divine origin given to the nation of Israel spoken and written by God, who at the time they were given had just been delivered from the oppression of Egypt, taken through the Red Sea miraculously, fed manna in the desert, and were on the way to the promised land. To a land flowing with milk and honey. You would think that they would be praising God don’t you, well as a matter of fact they were complaining. That sounds a lot like most of us doesn’t it. For what purpose are the Ten Commandments, were and are they still important. These are very important questions. Lets look at scripture to see what the scripture can show us.

In the book of Ecclesiastes, Soloman the wisest man that ever lived states how important they are. Eccl 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. If Solomon says they are that important, it would be to our best interest to know exactly what they are. There have been some people that say the Ten Commandments found in EXO 20 and DUET 5 are not really the 10 commandments.
But really they are found in EXO 34:26-27 and one of the commandments being this” The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.” 27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor (the Hebrew meaning of tenor is mouth) of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. Lets think about this for a minute, could this really be a commandment? Well lets see, in the King James Bible there are 1571 Thou shalts, 1213 thou shalts and 358 thou shalt nots, whoa, wait a minute I thought there were only 10 commmandments. In the Bible there are many directives, commands and instructions. But only Ten are called “The 10 commandments”. With so many commands directives and instructions how is one to know what are the 10 commandments.

Probably the 1st and most important way to determine what God is saying is by context. For example if you don’t put the text in proper context you just have a “con”. There are a lot of people out there today that “interpret” scripture. 1 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation. So how can we determine the context of a passage?
Isa 28:10 gives us a clue as the proper way to determine context. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
There are numerous ways, here are just a few.
In any portion of scripture usually you can find the context in the 1st 1-3 verses of the chapter you are in. If that isn’t helpful enough then read the chapter before and the chapter after to help determine the context. If something is important to God he will always repeat it numerous times.
Next, determine who is doing the speaking and who is being spoken to, this is very important. Another Bible study tool is to do a word study on the words themselves, ie Ten Commandments.
There is also the Law of 1st Mention; this is a Bible study principle that states the 1st occurrence of the word or words in the Bible determines the context for that word or words throughout the rest of the Bible. Also another important principle is that the “words” of scripture are key!

Lets use some of these principles of Bible study to see exactly what Gods word calls the Ten Commandments. Lets use the law of 1st mention 1st, what does the
1st occurrence of the words “Ten Commandments” tell us. Its found in Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Did you catch that? It says he “declared” the Hebrew here means, to tell, to make know, to inform, to proclaim, to announce. It says that he spoke-declared the Ten Commandments to them and to make sure they “got it they he wrote them on two tables of stone. That was the first occurrence in the Bible of Ten Commandments, what about context in this chapter, well the verse just prior to this one is Deut 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. Well lets further check out our context here in this chapter. Deut 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
As you can see in this chapter the context is “hearkening” that means listening, that means something had to have been spoken. But lets not listen to me lets look further at scripture and let Gods Word speak for us.

Now lets look at the 2nd occurrence of the phrase “Ten Commandments” it is found in Deut 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Can you start seeing the picture that God is painting for us. God wrote the Ten Commandments which was actually what he spake to the people in the mount. Lets check the context of this chapter to get more of the story.
Deut 10:1-2 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
2. And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

Remember the story we talked about it last time how Moses went up to meet with God to get the written Ten Commandments and when he came down all the people were partying and worshipping an idol, Moses got so mad he threw down the tables of stone. Why was Moses so mad, probably because the people should have known better, God had already spoken the Ten Commandments to them. So Moses was ask to do two things make two more tables of stone and make an ark of wood. Moses went up and God wrote again the Ten Commandments, the words that were spoken to Moses and the people in the mount before the first time Moses went up to get the written commandments. During this 2nd time Moses received the written Ten Commandments again and God had him put the Ten Commandments in the ark of the covenant.
Deut 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

Lets recap the story, Moses and the people heard the Ten Commandments by a voice from the Lord. Here are more scriptures to back up that point. Deut 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
God wanted the people to know that he was a personal God, that’s why he spoke to all of them, the children of Israel knew of God but didn’t know him personally. He was a distant figure. He wanted them to have a closer heart to heart relationship.
Duet 5:1-5 1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. 4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, 5 (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount
Deut 5:22-24 22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. 23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; 24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. 25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. 26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it. 28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken. 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! 30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again. 31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. 32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
Do you see what is happening here, the children of Israel heard the voice of God and were afraid and ask Moses to go and talk with God and have him tell them what the Lord says. This was before he went up the 1st time, and probably one of the reasons why they thought Moses wouldn’t be coming back. But they missed the whole point of Gods commandments it was for their good and protection and blessing. They were going into a land not only flowing with milk and honey, but also one with Giants, with idol worshippers and true pagans. God was wanting to prepare them by giving them instruction. Ok I think we can see now that God spoke the Ten Commandments to Moses and the people in the mount out of the midst of the fire, and that what was written on the tables of stone, is what was spoken to the assembly, and further we can see that what was written on the 1st was written on the 2nd tables of stone that Moses hewn and that these tables of stone, the “Ten Commandments” were put into the ark of wood Moses made and there they be. (see Deut 10:5)
Deut 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

Well so far we have applied context to the first 2 of the 3 instances we can find in the Bible of the words “Ten Commandments”. Lets move on the the 3rd occurrence in
Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. In this verse it almost looks as if Moses wrote upon the tables the Ten Commandments.
If we check the context again, looking at verse one what does it say? Lets remember good principles of Bible study to determine the context, lets go back to the first 1-3 verses in the chapter.
Exodus 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
We can see from this that it is God who writes the words upon the tables. Which tables is he speaking of, thru the context as we have seen earlier it is the tables of covenant. And these tables of covenant of stone the “Ten Commandments” God commands Moses to put into the ark of wood he made and leave them there. Huummmm……… Wait a minute if the tables of stone, the “tables of covenant” the “Ten Commandments” are in the ark, what is it that he takes in his hand down the mountain. What is it that Moses has in his hands coming down the if its not the “Ten Commandments”. We find that it is something called the “tables of testimony”. Lets see what the scripture says in verse 29.
Deut 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
Wow lets check this out so God wrote the “Ten Commandments” “tables of covenant” and gave them to Moses and commanded Moses to put them in the ark, where they stayed. Lets see what scripture says about what God calls the tables of testimony.
Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Exodus 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
Wow it looks like there are two sets of tables; the “tables of the covenant” and the “tables of testimony” both are the “Ten Commandments” both written with the finger of God.
I learned something here I didn’t know that there were two separate sets of tables written by the finger of God. I think God wanted Moses to know if something happens to the set he has, there is another here in the ark. But why would God put one set of the Ten Commandments in the ark (the tables of covenant) and have Moses carry one down the mountain?(tables of testimony) I believe the answers lies in the very definition of the words themselves. The word covenant means spiritual agreement. God is keeping the promises he made to Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and now a new covenant with the people of Israel. God is keeping a permanent record in the ark, a copy written with the finger of God. There is a spiritual agreement between God and Moses, Moses is charged with the task of communicating the Ten Commandments and the Law, to the children of Israel. The agreement is to take all the Lord had given him and share it with the people. Moses is a leader, he is to give out the words of the Lord to the people.
What about the “tables of testimony”, the tables that Moses brought down the mountain in his hands. The word testimony means a witness born in behalf of something. These “tables of Testimony” were bearing witness to the fact that God had spoken to the people the Ten Commandments and He had spoken with Moses giving him the Law. God is faithful, He keeps His promises, he was reaching out to the children of Israel, not just through prophets or special individuals but he spoke directly to them. God is wanting to make a new covenant with them, remember what they said.
Deuteronomy 5:27
Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
Also in:
Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
God gave Moses the “tables of Testimony” to take down the mountain because he wanted them to know that Moses had been a witness to the covenant he was making with them.
Whew, we have gone through a lot of scripture, but remember that’s the only way to truly get the context of any passage is by comparing scripture with scripture. We have seen that God spoke and wrote the “Ten Commandments” found specifically in Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 20. God singled out and made a written record of the “Ten Commandments” because they would be governing principles that would be good for all time, all ages and all cultures. It is recorded over and over in the Bible that if you obey the commandments you will find blessings. If you don’t, you will find a curse, or condemnation. The “Ten Commandments” are timeless principles that we can still apply to our lives today. So we can choose to obey the commandments and find blessings or choose to ignore or disobey the commandments and reap the consequences. Remember when it said ”when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, God had not only written the “tables of covenant” and the “tables of testimony” but he spent time communing with him, giving him more than just the Ten Commandments, he gave them other practical principles for the people of that day and culture to abide by for their good, many of which were for health and dietary concerns. Remember there are “1571 Thou shalts” but only “Ten were singled out by God as the “Ten Commandments” Those which would be guiding principles throughout the ages. Many of the others were considered statutes, judgements, ordinances and observations not commandments as in :
Exodus 34:22-26 22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end. 23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year. 25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. 26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Pretty much up to this point we have stayed in the Old Testament, but what does the New Testament have to say about the commandments. God in the flesh, Jesus Christ summed up all the commandments into two.
Matthew 22:37-40 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
In the Old Testament the Law needed to be followed “to the letter”, if you sinned it would take the priest to offer a blood sacrifice to pay for your sin. In the New Testament we are not under the law, but under grace. Christ is our High Priest who offered himself, shed His blood for us to attone for our sin.
Hebrew 9:11-15 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

QRUEL

holy crap... i did not realize that post would be so long.... SORRY !
just goes to show the verbal gymnastics people have to go through when trying to explain something that shouldn't need an explanation.

voodoomage

Well, you could have ommitted the last several paragraphs, since they have nothing to do with the 10 commandments discussion you were having with your friend, they were just mindless evangelical phrases and quotes.

QRUEL

okay I'll edit that...thx

NZSkep

maybe you could ask him to do an abstract/summary as it is very wordy.

QRUEL

yeah, no doubt. that's why i posted it. i didn't know if he was running verbal circles around himself or me

Gamera

Honestly, what's your point in a sentence or two?

RED DAVE

Freom QRUEL:
What evidence do you have, outside of the Bible itself, that any of these historical events actually happened:

(1) the oppression in Egypt;
(2) the exodus from Egypt and the crossing of the Red Sea on dry land;
(3) the divine authorship and miraculous delivery of the ten commandments,
(4) the wandering in the desert;
(5) manna;
(6) the conquest of Canaan?

Since none of these events occurred, your case for the divine nature of the ten commandments is nonexistent.

By the way, wasn't Jesus violating the 3rd (I think commandment) when he urged one of his disciples (Peter?) not to attend his father's funeral?

RED DAVE

Shadowy Man

Throwing down the "tables of stone" is not all he did:

They always seem to leave this little bit out of the Disney version...

QRUEL

um... perhaps you read my opening paragraph where I state that this was "from" my neighbor.

it was his reply to me, after tlaking about the different versions of the ten commandments.

to sum up his stance would be immpossible for me and which is why i posted his response to me here...so that people with more biblical knowledge could help me make sense of it