Chili

Israel is a state of mind and never was meant to be a nation. This idea is based on the Gen.2 where river of life was welling out of the earth and was watering the surface of ground in Eden . . . and beyond there it divided to introduce the forthcoming fall of man.

And the first river was the Pishon that winds through the whole land of Havilah, where there was gold, power and beauty. This river winds through the land just as humans will search the entire land for power wealth and beauty, because the gold is good, and power and beauty are desired qualities to gain recognition outside of Eden.

The second river is the Gihon that also winds through this same land now called Cush because it brings poverty and despair that leads us on towards the real meaning of life.

The third river is the Tigris. It flows East of Asshur, which probably is the place we left behind when we first left Eden. It doesn't wind or cover the whole land but just wells as if it is an infinite source of water for the living.

And the fourth river is the Eu-phrates and just "is" as in I AM. Eu = bright and phrates = mind.

Israel is therefore found between the Tigris and Euphrates where the gold is good but the true beauty of gold is found in our ability to walk away from it.

Based on the above it is just silly to expect peace in the outside world because that would make even the very idea of kingship redundant. There is no temple needed there for each king will have his own temple to take down and rebuilt in his own New Jerusalem.

Devil'sBackbone

From what I've read, Jesus was disqualified to be the messiah for another reason. I'm sure most people here have heard of the curse of King Jeconiah. God cursed his lineage so that none of his descendants could ever sin on the throne of David, which Jesus was supposed to have done. Now, looking through the genealogies given in Matthew and Luke, we can see descendants of Jeconiah in both of them. We see Jeconiah, Shealtiel, and Zerubbabel in Matthew. If we look in Luke 3, we see Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in it as well. So, by looking at both of these genealogies, we see that Jesus was disqualified and could not be the messiah.

jonesg

I'm just tagging on at the end of this thread.

Its safe to say, its not for man to dictate to God how or when any messiah will come or what is expected, thats the hand of man in the bible. Just because the jews decided what the qualifications were to be, that don't mean God has to agree.

Jesus didn't think he was going to die on the cross, but accepted it.

Its for God to decide who the messiah is and for man to decide if he wants it enough to experience it, Jesus did that.

Perhaps there were some who came before JEsus who coulda fullfilled the prophesy but chose otherwise. It looks like first come, first served and Jesus was the first.

Jesus was partly responsible for dropping the Roman empire to its knees, just not as quick as he thought it would happen.

Diogenes the Cynic

Your post makes no sense. The Messiah, by definition, is the figure described in the Hebrew Tanakh. Anyone who is not that figure is not the Messiah. Jesus did not fulfill the criteria as layed out in the Hebrew Bible, therefore he wasn't the Messiah. That's all there is to it.

Chili

But that is the beauty of the story. Those who deny Jesus as Messiah are needed to convict him as usurper of that role and crown him king while doing just that. The aim here is freedom from religion not through abandonment but in fulfillment. You must see religion as a means to the end wherein religion is a way of life that comes to an end with the end being the beginning of a new life in heaven now on earth.

Sensei Meela

Technically speaking, Christians do not consider this to be a problem at all, for:
...biology apparently is not necessary for kinship.

Garnet

Are believers in Judaism still expecting the coming of the messiah? I don't think it's possible any more to trace back ancestry to a particular Jewish tribe.

Mr. Aardvark

That's to argue from silence, a fallacy. But if we were to accpet Madison's hermenutic, one could argue that since there is no indication in either the OT or NT of only two comings, there could be three or more. And why should we even believe that however many comings there are, that final coming of Christ, the establishment of the Kingdom of God, etc. will end the whole saga. Perhaps another Lucifer type will arise, lead a rebellion and the entire schmear will start over again. If the standard is whatever the Bible is silent about remains possible, then a great deal that Christians seem to feel is certain about is undermined.

I thought the claim was John the Baptist was counted as Elijah by Christians.

Sensei Meela

Agreed. Really, though, I think it goes beyond that, for the texts read quite like an unbroken chronology (cf Isa. Ch. 11). Thus it's not just that they don't specifically identify a chronology, but they surely imply a certain reading.
He has suggested the possibility, yes.
Interesting; how stupid of me not to have thought of that tact!
Right. I was merely pointing out that Judaism had some precedent for a prophet needing a return trip to fulfill their mission; it is from: (Remembering, of course, that Elijah "went up to heaven in a whirlwind" in 2 Kings 2:11)

show_no_mercy

One other thing that Jesus did that contradicted his "messiah-ness"

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, with normal physical attributes just like other people. He will not be a demigod, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)