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Old 10-10-2011, 04:05 PM   #21
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Pete: there is no point in talking about C14 dating when we do not have the originals. Please drop this diversion.
Hey Toto,

There is every merit in discussing the C14 dating - it is not a diversion - it represents a method of scientifically dating artefacts and manuscripts. You cant just sweep it under the carpet. You should know by now that the chronology provided by Eusebius is the only other source from antiquity, and that a new scientific perspective on the question of chronology may be very useful.

Here is someone else saying the same thing but in a different way, commencing with the palaeographically dated "quasi-originals" ...


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Mani and Authorship of the Canonical Gospels

We have been in error, accepting the view of biblical scholarship and Christian tradition which dates the canonical gospels to the early period of the Roman Empire.

This error is personally mortifying, for I recognised and declared long ago the danger inherent in this approach. This is the sort of nonsense we accepted:
Even within the period that runs from c. A.D. 100-300 it is possible for paleographers to be more specific on the relative date of the papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament. For about sixty years now a tiny papyrus fragment of the Gospel of John has been the oldest “manuscript” of the New Testament. This manuscript (P52) has generally been dated to ca. A.D. 125. This fact alone proved that the original Gospel of John was written earlier, viz. in the first century A.D., as had always been upheld by conservative scholars.

(Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts by Peter van Minnen)

Use of the terms “fact” and “proved” is wrong. The early fragments of the New Testament do not have a secure, archaeological context and none have been radiocarbon-dated, relying instead on paleography. Here is better thinking:

What emerges from this survey is nothing surprising to papyrologists: paleography is not the most effective method for dating texts, particularly those written in a literary hand. Roberts himself noted this point in his edition of P52. The real problem is the way scholars of the New Testament have used and abused papyrological evidence. I have not radically revised Roberts’s work. I have not provided any third-century documentary papyri that are absolute “dead ringers” for the handwriting of P52, and even had I done so, that would not force us to date P52 at some exact point in the third century. Paleographic evidence does not work that way. What I have done is to show that any serious consideration of the window of possible dates for P52 must include dates in the later second and early third centuries. Thus, P52 cannot be used as evidence to silence other debates about the existence (or non-existence) of the Gospel of John in the first half of the second century. Only a papyrus containing an explicit date or one found in a clear archaeological stratigraphic context could do the work scholars want P52 to do. As it stands now, the papyrological evidence should take a second place to other forms of evidence in addressing debates about the dating of the Fourth Gospel.

(“The Use and Abuse of P52: Papyrological Pitfalls in the Dating of the Fourth Gospel” by Brent Nongbri, Harvard Theological Review 98:23-52, 2005.)

The non-canonical Gospel of Judas has been radiocarbon dated to 280 CE +/- 60 years and I now declare that the canonical gospels in their near-final form likely belong to this period.

Here is how I reached this position .....


Best wishes


Pete
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:38 PM   #22
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Yeah, and I'm pretty sure many historicists would agree with me on that.



That's exactly the kind of crap the early Christians did.



Sounds like a strawman to me.



Not sure what you're on about. Are you ok?
Hey, that is fine by me. With historists like you and GakuseiDon, who needs mythicists? There was absolutely nothing about Historical Jesus to build a religion around.

Jake
Why not? Moses, Mohamed, Buddha are examples of historical men that were successful in building religions. Or at least their followers did not make them god

All what it might have been necessary was to make him another prophet or guru.
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:36 PM   #23
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Jesus was relatively famous locally in Galilee (specifically).

But there were others like him. So he didn't stand out much in the long run.

Also, his disciples are going to exaggerate and make it sound like he achieved much more than he actually did. Doesn't mean it's no exaggeration.
Where do you get your stories from? You IMAGINE your own history. You have ZERO sources for your HJ of Nazareth.

In gMark, the disciples of the supposed Jesus did NOT exaggerate any so-called achievements.

The disciples ABANDONED Jesus when he was Arrested, Peter DENIED and stated THREE times that he did NOT know the man and the visitors FLED from the Grave site DUMBSTRUCK.

There was NO documented exaggeration by the disciples it was the COMPLETE OPPOSITE.

Peter EXAGGERATED his DENIALS of Jesus.

Mark 14:71 -
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But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak
.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCalavera View Post
Jesus was relatively famous locally in Galilee (specifically).

But there were others like him. So he didn't stand out much in the long run.

Also, his disciples are going to exaggerate and make it sound like he achieved much more than he actually did. Doesn't mean it's no exaggeration.
Where do you get your stories from? You IMAGINE your own history. You have ZERO sources for your HJ of Nazareth.

In gMark, the disciples of the supposed Jesus did NOT exaggerate any so-called achievements.

The disciples ABANDONED Jesus when he was Arrested, Peter DENIED and stated THREE times that he did NOT know the man and the visitors FLED from the Grave site DUMBSTRUCK.

There was NO documented exaggeration by the disciples it was the COMPLETE OPPOSITE.

Peter EXAGGERATED his DENIALS of Jesus.

Mark 14:71 -
Quote:
But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak
.
All the more reason to believe that Jesus did historically exist.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by MCalavera View Post
Jesus was relatively famous locally in Galilee (specifically).

But there were others like him. So he didn't stand out much in the long run.

Also, his disciples are going to exaggerate and make it sound like he achieved much more than he actually did. Doesn't mean it's no exaggeration.
Where do you get your stories from? You IMAGINE your own history. You have ZERO sources for your HJ of Nazareth.

In gMark, the disciples of the supposed Jesus did NOT exaggerate any so-called achievements.

The disciples ABANDONED Jesus when he was Arrested, Peter DENIED and stated THREE times that he did NOT know the man and the visitors FLED from the Grave site DUMBSTRUCK.

There was NO documented exaggeration by the disciples it was the COMPLETE OPPOSITE.

Peter EXAGGERATED his DENIALS of Jesus.

Mark 14:71 -
Quote:
But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak
.
All the more reason to believe that Jesus did historically exist.
HJ of Nazareth is a FAITH based PRESUMPTION using one's imagination.

Why do you BELIEVE Ghost stories contain history of HJ from Nazareth? Why?
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:52 PM   #26
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All the more reason to believe that Jesus did historically exist.
HJ of Nazareth is a FAITH based PRESUMPTION using one's imagination.

Why do you BELIEVE Ghost stories contain history of HJ from Nazareth? Why?
Because I don't have any personal agenda against Jesus himself (although he does sound like the kind of person I wouldn't want to be buddies with).
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:06 PM   #27
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All the more reason to believe that Jesus did historically exist.
HJ of Nazareth is a FAITH based PRESUMPTION using one's imagination.

Why do you BELIEVE Ghost stories contain history of HJ from Nazareth? Why?
Because I don't have any personal agenda against Jesus himself (although he does sound like the kind of person I wouldn't want to be buddies with).
What!!!! The HJ argument is based on the Premise that NT Jesus is fundamentally false and was KNOWN to be fiction.

You REJECT NT Jesus and BELIEVE in your own IMAGINED Jesus as history.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:18 PM   #28
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GakuseiDon said it best. The supposed Messiah failed.
Absent a presupposition that the gospel authors intended to write history or something similar to history, what reason do we have for thinking that anybody had any notion that Jesus of Nazareth was any kind of messiah?

As an argument for historicity, your appeal to messianic expectations looks mighty circular to me.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:34 PM   #29
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All the more reason to believe that Jesus did historically exist.
HJ of Nazareth is a FAITH based PRESUMPTION using one's imagination.

Why do you BELIEVE Ghost stories contain history of HJ from Nazareth? Why?

Centuries of "BELIEF" marketing; psychological and social conditioning, Etc. (by the Church of the Ghost)
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:01 AM   #30
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GakuseiDon said it best. The supposed Messiah failed.
Absent a presupposition that the gospel authors intended to write history or something similar to history, what reason do we have for thinking that anybody had any notion that Jesus of Nazareth was any kind of messiah?
You still think it's a presupposition after what Luke 1 says? :constern02:

Read your Bible for the answer.

Quote:
As an argument for historicity, your appeal to messianic expectations looks mighty circular to me.
Looks. Your lack of understanding is simply your own lack of understanding, nothing more.
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