Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MCalavera · 10-09-2011, 05:06 PM

Please, please, read this post and pay attention to it. He may not realize it, but aa5874 inadvertently argued for the historical Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Once Jesus was dead and was NOT KNOWN by the Jews as a Messiah there is NO WAY in the world he could be PROMOTED as a Jewish Messiah AFTER death.

The JEWS look for their EXPECTED MESSIAH among the LIVING not at the GRAVEYARD of dead men.

There is NO such thing as a POSTHUMOUS Jewish Messiah just like there is NO such thing as a POSTHUMOUS Emperor of Rome.

If a person was NOT the Emperor of Rome BEFORE death then surely they cannot be PROMOTED as Roman Emperor after death.

It should be completely OBVIOUS that if Jesus died and was UNKNOWN as the Messiah that the Jews either found their EXPECTED MESSIAH or was still looking among the living or those of the future.

Matt 16:20 -

Quote:

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ...

The JEWS did NOT expect or PROMOTE their Messiah should come from a Graveyard.

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Doug Shaver · 10-10-2011, 12:42 AM

Neither you nor aa has explained the relevance of Jewish messianic expectations to Jesus' historicity.

And if you try to explain it, please keep in mind that you'll need to address the question of whether all Jews of the first century had the same expectations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Please, please, read this post and pay attention to it. He may not realize it, but aa5874 inadvertently argued for the historical Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Once Jesus was dead and was NOT KNOWN by the Jews as a Messiah there is NO WAY in the world he could be PROMOTED as a Jewish Messiah AFTER death.

The JEWS look for their EXPECTED MESSIAH among the LIVING not at the GRAVEYARD of dead men.

There is NO such thing as a POSTHUMOUS Jewish Messiah just like there is NO such thing as a POSTHUMOUS Emperor of Rome.

If a person was NOT the Emperor of Rome BEFORE death then surely they cannot be PROMOTED as Roman Emperor after death.

It should be completely OBVIOUS that if Jesus died and was UNKNOWN as the Messiah that the Jews either found their EXPECTED MESSIAH or was still looking among the living or those of the future.

Matt 16:20 -

The JEWS did NOT expect or PROMOTE their Messiah should come from a Graveyard.

>

<

MCalavera · 10-10-2011, 03:09 AM

GakuseiDon said it best. The supposed Messiah failed. He failed to overthrow the oppressing kingdom. He was not supposed to fail.

jakejonesiv · 10-10-2011, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

GakuseiDon said it best. The supposed Messiah failed. He failed to overthrow the oppressing kingdom. He was not supposed to fail.

So are you saying that in your opinion, the Jesus Christ of the gospels was a failure?

MCalavera · 10-10-2011, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

GakuseiDon said it best. The supposed Messiah failed. He failed to overthrow the oppressing kingdom. He was not supposed to fail.

So are you saying that in your opinion, the Jesus Christ of the gospels was a failure?

Yep, physically, he failed as the Messiah. So they had to make it up with more spiritualized doctrines.

Think the Great Disappointment and the Seventh-day Adventists' spiritual solution.

aa5874 · 10-10-2011, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Yep, physically, he failed as the Messiah. So they had to make it up with more spiritualized doctrines..l.

You INVENTED what you have claimed. First of all, there is NO credible source of antiquity that can show that gMark is an historical account of a man in any Extant Codices.

All you are doing is PRESUMING and IMAGINING your OWN history.

Your IMAGINATION and PRESUMPTIONS are NOT evidence of anything.

This is the 21st century. If you have NO SOURCES then you might as well give up.

I don't accept IMAGINATION, PRESUMPTIONS based on Ghost stories as evidence of the past.

It is NOT "they who made it up" it is YOU who made up your story that "they made it up".

MCalavera · 10-10-2011, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Yep, physically, he failed as the Messiah. So they had to make it up with more spiritualized doctrines..l.

You INVENTED what you have claimed. First of all, there is NO credible source of antiquity that can show that gMark is an historical account of a man in any Extant Codices.

All you are doing is PRESUMING and IMAGINING your OWN history.

Your IMAGINATION and PRESUMPTIONS are NOT evidence of anything.

This is the 21st century. If you have NO SOURCES then you might as well give up.

I don't accept IMAGINATION, PRESUMPTIONS based on Ghost stories as evidence of the past.

You're presuming they're ghost stories instead of historical accounts with theological agendas. :huh:

aa5874 · 10-10-2011, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Yep, physically, he failed as the Messiah. So they had to make it up with more spiritualized doctrines..l.

You INVENTED what you have claimed. First of all, there is NO credible source of antiquity that can show that gMark is an historical account of a man in any Extant Codices.

All you are doing is PRESUMING and IMAGINING your OWN history.

Your IMAGINATION and PRESUMPTIONS are NOT evidence of anything.

This is the 21st century. If you have NO SOURCES then you might as well give up.

I don't accept IMAGINATION, PRESUMPTIONS based on Ghost stories as evidence of the past.

You're presuming they're ghost stories instead of historical accounts with theological agendas. :huh:

Are you serious? In the Synoptics, Jesus was FATHERED by a Ghost.

Please, please, please. I cannot presume that stories about the Child of a Ghost are NOT Ghost stories.

IT was PUBLICLY circulated in antiquity that Jesus was FATHERED by a Ghost and that is NOT a presumption, that is the history of antiquity.

jakejonesiv · 10-10-2011, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCalavera

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

So are you saying that in your opinion, the Jesus Christ of the gospels was a failure?

Yep, physically, he failed as the Messiah. So they had to make it up with more spiritualized doctrines.

Think the Great Disappointment and the Seventh-day Adventists' spiritual solution.

That is quite a revelation! You believe that there was a Historical Jesus, but he was a miserable failure, dead and rotting. I don't care a whit about "the Seventh-day Adventists' spiritual solution." that is a load of crap. Anyone can believe fantasy land stuff about spiritual jesus, that is not provable and is not historical. Stick to HJ.

I am beginning to like your point of view MaClavera. GakuseiDon "proves" HJ had no pre-existence, and you "prove" HJ ended in abject failure. Do you think it is possible his body ws eaten by dogs?

Jake

MCalavera · 10-10-2011, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

That is quite a revelation! You believe that there was a Historical Jesus, but he was a miserable failure, dead and rotting.

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure many historicists would agree with me on that.

Quote:

I don't care a whit about "the Seventh-day Adventists' spiritual solution." that is a load of crap.

That's exactly the kind of crap the early Christians did.

Quote:

Anyone can believe fantasy land stuff about spiritual jesus, that is not provable and is not historical. Stick to HJ.

Sounds like a strawman to me.

Quote:

I am beginning to like your point of view MaClavera. GakuseiDon "proves" HJ had no pre-existence, and you "prove" HJ ended in abject failure. Do you think it is possible his body ws eaten by dogs?

Not sure what you're on about. Are you ok?

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10-10-2011, 03:09 AM	#3
MCalavera Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 314	GakuseiDon said it best. The supposed Messiah failed. He failed to overthrow the oppressing kingdom. He was not supposed to fail.

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