Johnny Skeptic

Are you saying that you would never use any of those arguments regarding prophecies in other religious books. Are you suggesting that people should take your word for it that the Tyre prophecy was made before the events, and was not later revised?

But you do know how many Jewish prophets might have been killed, and how many times they might have revised their prophecies so that would not be killed.

There you go again getting off-topic. Do you by any chance know what the purpose of thread titles is? If any chance you do, then if you wish to discuss messiancies prophecies, you ought to know that you should start a new thread on messinic prophecies. Even though this thread is about the Trye prophecy, you have tried to validate it with the book of Daniel, with the Partition of Palestine, and now with messianic prophecy. Since you obviously do not believe that the Tyre prophecy can stand upon its merits, and since you contradicted yourself when you claimed that Daniel mentioned Alexander, only to later claim that you could not back that up, and since I have already reasonably proven that the Partion of Palestine is self-fulfilled prophecy, what do you suggest that we discuss next? Yet again, this thread is about the Tyre prophecy. If you wish to validate the Tyre prophecy by mentioning some other prophecies, which prophecies do you have in mind?

Certainly not if he conveniently revised his prophecies.

Since you are the claimant, it is not up to me to resonably prove whether or not that is the case.

That comment is not evidence. Please stick to the evidence. If you have any evidence that the Tyre prophecy was made before the events, and that it was not later revised, please post it. For purposes of this thread, I am not interested in any other prophecies. All prophecies must stand upon their own merits. Since you believe that the Tyre prophecy cannot stand upon its own merits, it is up to you to discuss a prophecy that you believe can stand upon its own merits.

Why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander?

Why didn't God make any indisputable prophecies, such as predicting when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year?

You are quite naive if you believe that reasonably validating the Biblical historical records reasonably defends Christianity. Even if a God inspired the Bible, his character is an equally important issue. Unless you can reasonably defend God's character, it does not make any difference if the Biblical historical records are true. A good place to discuss God's character is in a thread at the MF&P Forum at http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=234658l. The title is 'Argument That the Christian God is Evil.' Do you intend to participate in that thread? One of the main reasons that people give up Christianity, or refuse to become Christians, is because they know that even a God inspired the Bible, he is evil, amoral, mentally incompetent, or a benevolent but inept bungler who failed in his attempts to create a much better world than the world that he created.

arnoldo

I guess if Ezekiel wrote part of the prophecy before the event it's because Nebby was telling him what he was going to do, right? :huh:

Johnny Skeptic

What if Ezekiel wrote the Tyre prophecy after Nebuchadnezzar invaded Tyre?

Minimalist

Well, we don't want you to stay awake all night, do we?

http://http://www.middleeast.com/tyre.htm

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: If God had told Ezekiel about Alexander, we would not be having these discussions. Your obvious reply will be that you have some other prophecies that you have more confidence in than you have in the Tyre prophecy, in which case I will ask you to pick one and let's discuss it in a new thread. You are wasting your time in this thread since you know that you cannot produce any credible evidence that Ezekiel did not write the Tyre prophecy after he found out that Nebuchadnezzar planned to invade Tyre. The Tyre prophecy is a loser. Please pick a prophecy that you have more confidence in.

arnoldo

I suppose if Ezekiel would have wrote down exactly how Nebby destroyed Tyre you would respond he wrote it after the fact. However you also claim Ezekiel wrote the prophecy after he knew about the attack on Tyre then why would he record an error? Just because you don't understand or misinterpret a prophecy doesn't mean it's not ture.

spin

When you obviously don't understand the book, how can you think it is a prophecy? ... ... Well, I guess it's because you don't understand it.


spin

spin

Because sugarhitman has a short attention span, let me repost the questions I am waiting for him to attempt to answer.

1. Why were all the other Phoenician cities built on island, but you think Tyre, which was founded by Sidon, was not?
2. Why would the central city of Tyre be on the land if there was an island off the coast that they could inhabit and thus be safer from siege?
3. Why does Hiram king of Tyre say to Solomon, "do thou take care to procure us corn for this timber, which we stand in need of, because we inhabit in an island"? (Josephus, AJ 8.2.7. See also 8.6.3)
4. Why does Josephus tell us that Hiram "raised banks at the eastern parts of the city, and enlarged it; he also joined the temple of Jupiter Olympius, which stood before in an island by itself, to the city, by raising a causeway between them", Contra Apion 1.17, if Tyre was on the mainland?
5. Where were "Old Tyre"'s harbors?
6. Why did Shalmaneser V, Sennacherib and Ashurbanipal each besiege Tyre a few decades after the other, if they had each conquered the city and dominated it? Was it not because Tyre was an island and it came to an accord with each king from the safety of that island?
7. What did Nebuchadnezzar do against the inhabitants of the island for the 13 years?
8. Why does Ezekiel say, "King Nebuchadnezzar made his army labor hard against Tyre... yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor he expended against it", 29:18?
9. Why does Ezekiel refer to the mainland possessions connected to Tyre as the "daughters on the land", if "Old Tyre" was on land?
10. Why does Ezekiel refer to Tyre as being in the midst of the sea, 27:32, if it was not an island?

Please try to answer the questions in responding to this post, sugarhitman, instead of simply trying to avoid your responsibilities by changing the subject.


spin

knotted paragon

Chris, do you mean Usu or Ushu? If so, it was the name of the mainland part of the island stronghold - and yes, Nebuchadnezzar’s army quickly took control of it.

Johnny Skeptic

If a Hindu told you about a similar prophecy in Hindu writings you would respond that whoever wrote it wrote it after the fact, right.

But you already know that I have not claimed that there are any errors. Neither have orthodox Jews who have rejected Christianity and want to know why you believe that they are wrong.

Which errors are you talking about?

But you are well aware that I have never argued that the events did not happen. If they did happen, would that automatically mean that Ezekiel did not write the prophecy after the facts? Of course not. You are debating other skeptics regarding whether or not the prophecy is accurate. Are you not aware that if they end up agreeing with you that the prophecy is accurate that that would still not prove that Ezekiel wrote Tyre prophecy before the events? At any rate, it IS NOT my position that the prophecy is not true. There is nothing that says that all skeptics and all Christians have to use the same arguments. James Holding has criticized Josh McDowell on a number of occasions. Some skeptics have criticized Richard Carrier. In order for you to be successful, you have to cover all of the bases, including obejctions from orthodox Jews who agree with you regarding the Partition of Palestine but disagree with you about Christianity.