Clivedurdle

I was brought up pentecostal and have preachers imprinted on my brain preaching Hebrews - High priests and all that stuff. (One of Jim's sources might be Dake).

Comment on the Daniel thread about the start of the ministry got me thinking - what tribe is Jesus from?

What is he meant to be - a king or a priest?

Does Judaism have priest-kings?

Does this answer any questions about the mythological nature of Jesus - that there isn't even any consistency with what would be expected of a Jewish leader?

Anat

Some of the Hasmoneans were both high priests and kings, and there were objections to both roles, as though they were from a priestly family they weren't from the line of Tzadok, which was accepted as the legitimate lineage of high priests, neither were they from the House of David, the legitimate monarchic line.

Sheshbazzar

Yahshua the Messiah is a High Priest forever after the Order of Melchizedek, (Psalm 110:4 and Hebrews 6:20 through 7:28)

Clivedurdle

Those are the verses imprinted on me! I avoided mentioning Melchizedek deliberately!

But what does the New Testament say about Jesus being a priest and or a king, do these writings fit with traditional Judaic thinking, can we draw any conclusions for example:

The NT gives a pretty cogent description that adds up

Descriptions are all over the place but it does not matter, there is still a kernel of historicity

It does not add up and is further evidence it is all a myth, that might not actually be a Jewish myth to start with!

Clivedurdle

Is this idea of Jesus being both priest and king an innovation of xianity, or where did it come from?

Melchizadek is very useful cop out as being a priest before Levi existed, and modern protestants have a cop out in the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers.

Is there a traceable evolution of ideas here? The destruction of the temple and the ending of the priesthood in Judaism would seem very fertile ground for conjoining concepts of Messiah and priest. Is this evidence that xianity is actually a post fall of Jerusalem invention? Does Paul discuss the priesthood of Christ? If so, where did he get the idea from?

Amaleq13

He is described in Hebrews as being a priest only in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Clivedurdle

Agreed, but the Gospels have a story of the veil being rent at the death.

Has anyone looked at the evolution of this idea that Jesus is a priest? This feels like it might be very strong evidence of the mythological nature of the concept of Jesus. It is fundamentally important as it goes to the root of the main doctrine of xianity - that the death of christ does lead to salvation - but wehich way - by promoting to being a priest to intercede for us or by the sacrifice's sweet smell to God?

Vorkosigan

There is a huge collection of articles on Jesus, the Priesthood, etc, in Second Temple Judaism. I particularly recommend the stuff by Margaret Barker and especially Crispin Fletcher-Louis.

http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/

Sheshbazzar

To us that believe, He is both our King and High Priest, on earth, and in heaven, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, even forever, in all times and in all places, for this is the significance of His Name, "I AM" -present-
As He has of old spoke unto them that put their trust in Him;
"Fear not for, I AM with you."
But rejecting Him, unto whom amongst all the children of men, do you believe the words of Psalm 110 were intended to be applied?
Bring forward your candidate, proclaim his name, and declare his qualifications for such high office, Will he measure up?

spin

No, Jesus was not a priest. In Hebrew society one is born into a priestly family, ie you are a son of Aaron, otherwise you are not a priest. Jesus has no claim of priestly descent.

The Melkizedeq story doesn't place Melkizedeq in Hebrew society. Ps.110 is problematical as it wasn't found among the DSS, but the JPS translation of 110:4b has, "you are a priest forever, a rightful king by My decree." It is a royal psalm, whose suggested late dating would make it Hasmonean, when I think the Melkizedeq tradition was developed to account for the usurpation of the priesthood by that family. The Hasmoneans were those who combined priesthood and kingship, a combination indicated by the name Melkizedeq (the high priesthood once called the sons of Zadoq).

The nt use of Ps.110 is merely another case of decontextualisation and recontextualisation, as we have seen with Is.7:14 which has lost its Ahaz/Assyria context and is transformed into a "prediction" regarding Jesus.


spin