Loomis

Maybe. And maybe the divine name is question is Baal or El - and not Yahweh.

I agree. And it says power.

Not in the LXX. The LXX just says lord. Mark could have thought lord meant El.

If Mark’s copy of Psalm 110 had Yahweh then why didn’t he translate it as lord?

Why did he use the same word that GPeter used for El?

That deserves an explanation.

Also, are you familiar with the Baal epic?

Do you realize that Baal was called lord?

Kothar sat down at Baal’s right hand.

Surprised?

Baal was a rider of the clouds. Just like the one 'like the Son of Man' over in Daniel 7.

Apparently the stuff about the footstool also comes from Canaanite / Ugaritic literature.

My point is that there are a lot of options when it comes to deciding who the lord is and who gets to sit at his right hand.

I don’t think so.Because it’s fiction and it never happened. This also explains why Jesus hasn’t returned, why "God" looks so much like a character out of Canaanite / Ugaritic literature, and why bad things happen to good people

Let me know if you need more examples.

I am seeking evidence to show that the guys who wrote the NT knew that the name ‘Yahweh’ existed.

Jesus’ act of blasphemy appears to be that he claimed to be the anointed one. But even if he did ‘drop the divine name’ then GPeter favors the view that the name he dropped was El.

Loomis

Not as unnecessary as pretending that I must first demonstrate that anyone "invented" Jesus in order to show that there is no NT support for the name Yahweh.

Ben C Smith

Again, El was not a forbidden word.

Why did Mark change Lord to power in his quotation?

I am sure his copy did not have Yahweh. It had Lord. That is what the LXX has at Psalm 109.1 (110.1 Masoretic). So why did Mark say power instead of Lord?

This I already explained. The author of the gospel of Peter found power in his copy of Mark during the trial, and misunderstood its import, why it was there. He used it on the cross instead, where it now substitutes needlessly for a nonforbidden word.

Yes, of course.

Okay, this discussion has just officially turned creepy. I am not going to waste time justifying why I think a high priest who would have been presiding in century I is dead by now.

Again, what kind of evidence are you seeking? If you want to find that name written down somewhere, you are not going to find it. It was, as I may have mentioned, a forbidden word.

Uttering the name El was not blasphemy, socially unacceptable, or illegal in any way. And Psalm 110.1 has Lord (in the Greek), not El, Lord being a substitute for Yahweh (in the Hebrew).

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Your question was about, quote, the people who invented Jesus, unquote. I say that no such people existed. Yet, as you say, the conversation can still proceed. This means that the way you worded your question was entirely unnecessary. You were introducing a difference between our viewpoints that does not strictly matter to the discussion at hand, except that it may well color your reception of my argument, since it is not beyond possibility that Mark did not know why his sources had power at that point, but that Jesus certainly knew what the divine name was, it having been his uttering of it that got him hauled before Pilate.

Ben.

Sarpedon

Doesn't Elija say 'Abba! Adonai!' in response to Yaweh as he's being taken up in the chariot of fire?

Ben C Smith

It is Elisha, not Elijah, as he witnesses Elijah being taken. And it is my father, my father, without the Adonai. 2 Kings 2.12.

Ben.

Toto

2 Kings 2: 11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.

I don't know how this reads in Hebrew. It is Elisha who cries out "my father." Who is "my father" here? This commentary says "My father: a religious title accorded prophetic leaders."

compare

2 Kings 13: 14 When Elisha became sick with the illness of which he was to die, Joash the king of Israel came down to him and wept over him and said, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!"

Loomis

So what are you saying here?

Are you saying what I think you are saying?

Are you saying that the author of GPeter translated El as Power because he thought El was the forbidden name and because he wanted his 'word substitution' to agree with Mark?

Ben C Smith

No. I am saying that the author of the gospel of Peter really liked the expression power for the almighty, and he decided to use it in his narrative, even where its original function of substituting for the divine name was lost.

Ben.

Loomis

Cool.

If you ever come across of any direct textual evidence to support your claim that the term power was a conscious substitute for Yahweh please post it here. :wave: