aa5874

So, it is a waste of time to discuss your dead beloved teacher and his 12 scared guys?

Ok.


Well, maybe it's the authors of Jesus in whom you have faith. Perhaps you have faith in the words of gMatthew, gLuke, Peter or of the "Paul" in Timothy, Philemon and Acts.

TJ12

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I just meant discussing it with you in particular, since you haven't yet given me any reason to believe that such a discussion would be in any way interesting. Also, he's not my dead beloved teacher.



This is not an answer to my question. I asked "why" and you respond with a repetition of your original assumption. I don't think "why" is a very complicated question. Maybe you just don't want to answer it and want to continue to press your assumptions. If you want to fish, keep fishing. If you want to have a discussion, then start acting like you want to have a discussion.

aa5874

But, this is the English translation of (KJV) Matthew 1.16 I do not see the word "Christus" in Matthew 1.16.

Now if your name is actually "Christus", not all related to Jesus Christ, then,

.. Auctor nominis eius Christus...

would still be valid.

aa5874

Well, I am really interested in the dead beloved teacher and the 12 scared guys that you call the simplest and most probable explanation.

In which century was he dead? The dead beloved teacher.

spamandham

By itself, it might not mean much, but when you combine it with the following facts, it starts to mean something:

1) The names of some of the 12 differ in 4 canonical gospels
2) The conversion stories of the few disciples for whom such a story is listed are completely implausible

TJ12

In your rush to respond to the first part of my post, I think you forgot to read the second part.

Ben C Smith

Let me see if I get this straight. When evaluating what either Tacitus or Matthew have to say about Christ or Christus, what is important is the English translation. Is that what you are saying?

Ben.

Toto

Add to this the general idea that an efficient organization will typically have only 3 to 5 people at a management level. (And the gospels do depict Jesus as interacting with only a handful of these alleged 12 disciples.) A group of 12 will get bogged down in process and interpersonal misunderstandings.

The problem then becomes that once you start stripping away the elements in the gospel stories that appear to be mythological or literary, you can just keep going until nothing is left.

But aa5874 has not been the most persuasive proponent of this point of view.

(I should note for the record Peter Kirby's essay on the Seven Apostles.)

aa5874

I evaluate what the translators present.

The translators of Annals 15.44 used the word "Christus", do you want to override them and put the word "Christ"?

The translators in Josephus used the word Christ instead of Christus at 18.3.3 and 20.9.1, do you want to single-handedly insert the word "Christus"?

It is just purely speculative and faith-based to claim that Jesus Christ was Christus, when there is just not enough information in Annals to support such a claim.

aa5874

I was rushing to ask you that question, when was the dead beloved teacher dead, in what century?