Steven Carr

Hopefully, I shall be debating the resurrection of Jesus on Unbelievable on Premier Christian Radio on 15/04/2006

I have some thoughts on the subject at
http://stevencarrwork.blogspot.com/

Basically, I think Paul believed what he wrote, when he wrote that 'the last Adam (became) a life-giving spirit'


http://www.premier.org.uk/ is the address of Premier Radio

From there you can find instructions on how to listen to the upcoming show

Steven Avery

The sound quality is about of the best I've heard on the net. And they even have that strange accent.

Julian

Could you tell us what time? I looked at the website but couldn't find out when.

Julian

Clivedurdle

Brilliant blog!

I had "he shall be raised incorruptible" going in the back of my head!

The catholic doctrine of transubstantiation makes more sense in this light!

Just as xians get a second spiritual body at the second coming, the bread becomes spiritual flesh in the primary ritual.

Classic magic - doing on earth something to reflect the heavenly reality.

When you go on Premiere ask them to play that bit of the Messiah ....

Steven Carr

At 11:20 GMT or 12:20 British Summer Time

Steven Carr

I was asked weeks ago to summarise my arguments, while I have only received today as summary of what my opponent will say in response to my arguments at http://stevencarrwork.blogspot.com/

As you can see, it is nothing but preaching and bluster.


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Hi Steven

I've had a reply from Canon Michael Cole. I'm afraid its just a few notes from a thought of the day that is going out at Easter - not particularly a rebuttal of your arguments - he's looking out another script with more detail, but we'll have to wait and see for that.

Let's remember that the discussion may well, and indeed should, range into other areas regarding the resurrection, aside from the argument you want to pursue - so we'll see where the flow of the programme takes us.

In the meantime here's what he sent me:


TUESDAY APRIL 5 THE RISEN LORD.

God……brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus. Hebrews 13 v 20.

The Resurrection –‘The best attested fact of human history’- That is the considered opinion of a former expert in legal evidence. Easter Sunday is 'The day that changed the world'’

There are many reasons why Christians believe Jesus is alive today – the empty tomb, the teaching of the Scriptures, the changed lives of millions, the fact of the church and the failure to find the dead bones. In today’s reading we are simply told ‘God brought Jesus back from the dead’ The God of Creation becomes the God of a New Creation.

Writing to the Church at Corinth Paul reflects on what would be the situation if God hadn’t brought Jesus back from the dead. There would be no hope, no forgiveness, no future, no truth in the Scriptures and no reliable preaching and teaching –in fact there would be no faith.(See 1 Corinthians 15 v 12-19)

But Jesus is alive today. Wherever we shall be today and what ever our situation Jesus knows about it and promises to be with us. He is seated at the Father’s right hand in glory, praying for us and keeping open the way to the Father’s throne.

One of Graham Kendrick’s hymns about Easter has this verse ; ‘At the right hand of the Father, now seated on high, You have begun Your eternal reign of justice and joy. Glory, Glory, Glory, Glory’ Let’s make the chorus today’s prayer –

The Prayer ;Lord, You’re alive, You’re alive, You have risen! And the power and the glory is given, Alleluia! Jesus to You. Amen.

mikem

If you mean the presenter that's a London accent. To me as a Northerner it's not really an accent at all! By eck, lad! Jesus and his disciples had Northern accents. (Matthew 26:73) I doubt Jesus went round saying, "by eck lad!" though. Mind you...

Chunk

Can you listen to it now, or could you only hear it when it was live?

mikem

Good blog Steven. 2 Corinthians 5: 1-10 also seems to support your case.
However, you will no doubt have to explain Romans 8:10- 12, especially the phrase "he who raised Christ Jesus will give life to your mortal bodies". The passages in 1 Corinthians is highly metaphorical, and can be used to defend either physical or spiritual resurrection, depending upon where you put the emphasis. Verse 35 for example, "what you sow does not come to life unless it dies, could be interpreted to mean that the physical body has to die, but comes to life in a new form. What Paul might have had in mind, in the preceding question : How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come? might have been the sceptic who says there's no life after death, the body just rots, so how can can ther be a life after death? to which Paul says the body is like a seed, it is transformed in the resurrection.

I put these forward as alternative interpretations that your opponent, if he is worth his salt, may throw at you. i dare say you know all this already anyway. Good luck!!!

Steven Carr

It is pretty obvious that there, Paul is talking about the here and now, rather than a resurrection. Without Jesus, we are just dead men walking, to use a modern idiom which explains what he means.


Paul had just asked in chapter 7, 'Who will rescue me from this body of death?', which only makes sense if he knows that his body is not going to be saved, and he does not want to be dragged down with it.

Sceptics? These people were Christians who accepted that Jesus had died. How could they have heard the stories of Jesus rising from the dead, Lazarus rising from the dead, and deny that dead bodies could rise.

Just before Paul said your quote, Paul has said 'You do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed...'

Paul would have thought that the seed died and had to be discarded. People often talked about separating the wheat from the chaff. Our body is just chaff.

Contrast what Paul says with what a believer in resurrection of the flesh says . Justin Marytr says outright 'The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died.'


Or contrast the way 2 Baruch handles exactly the same question. How will dead bodies rise. Notice that the author is very explicit, and stresses continuity of body, while Paul gives a whole list of bodies, all made from different substances, and never turning from one into the other.

2 Baruch

49 1 Nevertheless, I will again ask from Thee, O Mighty One, yea, I will ask mercy from Him who made all things. 2 "In what shape will those live who live in Thy day? Or how will the splendour of those who (are) after that time continue? ....


50 1 And He answered and said unto me: 'Hear, Baruch, this word, And write in the remembrance of thy heart all that thou shalt learn. 2 For the earth shall then assuredly restore the dead, *It shall make no change in their form, But as it has received, so shall it restore them*, And as I delivered them unto it, so also shall it raise them.


Notice also that 2 Baruch does not call people fools for asking in what form dead bodies could rise.

Paul does.

This was not just vulgar abuse by Paul. He thought it was a stupid question.

Here is a modern analogy, which explains why Paul wrote the way he did.

Suppose I deny the resurrection of the dead.

And I say that dead people cannot rise and go to Heaven because they have to take their library books back, and how can they do that when they are in Heaven?

If you were Paul, you would say that there really will be a resurrection of the dead, and then you would go on to say that this stuff about taking library books back is dumb. (and you wouldn't say that with God all things are possible, so he can get the library books back for you)


This is just how Paul writes. In verses 12 to 34 he stesses the resurrection of the dead , without once saying that dead *bodies* rise, and then he says that the reason why the Corinthians doubt the resurrection of the dead is a dumb reason.

Leaving dead bodies behind is what happens during a resurrection, you idiot. That is what his writing implies. The seed dies. Why does Paul say that the seed dies, when chastising people for wondering how a dead body can live?

Paul is saying 'How can dead bodies rise? You idiot! A dead body is dead.'

The Corinthians ask how dead bodies can be resurrected, not realising that having a dead body lying around is part of the process. It dies, and then God produces a new body.

The deead body sown into the ground is just a place-holder. God puts in a body to where the place-holder is, and the seed is just there to tell God to produce a spiritual body.

'But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.' Having a dead body is part of the process, and God will give us a suitable body, after the seed has died.


Paul says 'If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.' Note the also.

Paul's writing so disturbed some early Christians that some forged a 3 Corinthians where they rewrite 1 Corinthians 15 and make Paul say the things they think he should have said in the first place.

In 3 Corinthians, 'Paul' uses examples of resurrected bodies to show that dead bodies can rise.

But in 1 Corinthians, the real Paul says it is dumb to ask how a corpse can rise, and points out that we will be like the resurrected Jesus - not made from the dust of the earth, but a life-giving spirit, made from a heavenly substance.