Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 01-21-2008, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshong

You have it backwards. I don't have to prove anything about God. You're the one making the claim. He who claims, has the burden of proof. That would be *you*, not me.

Theory has nothing to do with it. The partition of Palestine is a bona fide example of a self-filled prophecy. If the Bible did not say anything about Jews, the partition of Palestine would never have happened. In addition, if the Axis powers had won the Second World War, the partition of Palestine would not have happened. The U.S. emerged from the Second World War as the greatest military and economic power in human history. No nation or group of nations would have been able to oppose the wishes of the U.S. that Palestine be partitioned. If Jewish history and Palestinian history had been reversed, and the Jews had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties, there is no way that the U.S. would have approved of Palestinians getting control of Jerusalem. There is not doubt whatsoever that the partition of Palestine is a bona fide case of a Bible based, self-filfilling prophecy.

Historically, humans have acquired land largely by military means. The partition of Palestine is only one more example of the acquisition of land by military means.

If Jews and Palestinians were contesting the ownership of land in a remote desert region in Australia that had no valuable natural resources, Jews, Muslims, and conservative Christians would be quite interested in those squabbles, but no one else in the world would.

Sugarhitman said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And both sides recieved arms and material support from different countries. Did America ever fight along side Jews in the wars? No. America the superpower whichever side it helps wins...right? Try telling that to South Vietnam, try telling that to the Somozistas, try telling that to the anti-Castro forces of Cuba, try telling that to the anti-Chavez forces in Venezuela. You keep on bringing up military might as if Americans fought in this war....they did not.

I replied:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Are you saying that if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestinians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, that the partition of Palestine would have awarded control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and would have awarded a grossly unfair amount of land per capita to Palestians such as the Jews got? In addition, are you saying that the Bible did not have anything to with the partition of Palestine.

A brief history lesson is in order here. During the first part of the Second World War, the U.S. did not have any troops in Europe. At that time, did the U.S. fight along side of the British? No. Did aid from the U.S. prevent Hitler from defeating Britain? Yes. Would Palestine have been partitioned the way that it was partioned without help from nations who were predominanantly Christian? No. If Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestinians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, would the United Nations have granted the Jews control of Jerusalem and awarded Palestians a grossly unfair amount of land per capita to like the Jews got? No.

What do you have to say about that?[/QUOTE]

Ignorant of history I see. Where do you think Hitler funds came from? American corporations and banks. Read history about this. America Elite aided Hitler

sugarhitman · 01-21-2008, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I love how a supposedly moral person can blindly support terrorism, genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid as means of a prophecy being fulfilled.

Look at this gem:

If it's stolen, won in war, or given by the UN it makes no difference. Since in your opinion there is no god then it's simply survival of the fittest and in this case the jews are the fittest. On which philisophy do you base your so called "morality?" Why would anyone else agree to your version of what is right or wrong? Your arguments are not valid.

The notion of morals and ethics is actually a problem for a religious believe, who by necessity has no morals or ethics, but slavishly do what they are told by what they believe to be some entity vastly superior to themselves. This is an exercise in submission to mental slavery and abnegation of any moral responsibility, making it possible to justify acts of terrorism, genocide, etc., because, well, god says it's ok.

A christian, as a christian, has no understanding of morals or ethics. That's why the only thing outside their narrow niche is "survival of the fittest", despite the fact that they advocate a notion which is equivalent, as the people with the omnipotent god on their side are of course the fittest.

To understand the notion of ethics and morality, one has to have a perspective outside christianity.

(This is not to say that christians can have morals, despite their christianity. That's why, for example, some American christians opposed slavery.)

spin

You do realize that the survival of the fittest comes from the Atheist evolution theory right? I

sugarhitman · 01-21-2008, 03:19 AM

The Partition of Palestine (a future thread) was not a partition to create a Jewish state but a home land for both Jews and Arabs with the Arabs being the Majority. Land promised to the Jews was given to Transjordan, and Jerusalem was to be a U.N. controled site. The White Paper limited the number of Jews allowed to this land. If the Partition of Palestine was meant to Restore Israel then why are they opposing Israel? Why are they trying to snatch Jerusalem out of Israeli hands. Indeed why are they forcing Israel to give up land that it obtained in war, land that was originally promised them in the first place? Critics like all bible prophecy will reject it even when it is unfolding right before their eyes, why? Simple because Israel proves that God exist. Adios

spin · 01-21-2008, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I love how a supposedly moral person can blindly support terrorism, genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid as means of a prophecy being fulfilled.

Look at this gem:

If it's stolen, won in war, or given by the UN it makes no difference. Since in your opinion there is no god then it's simply survival of the fittest and in this case the jews are the fittest. On which philisophy do you base your so called "morality?" Why would anyone else agree to your version of what is right or wrong? Your arguments are not valid.

The notion of morals and ethics is actually a problem for a religious believe, who by necessity has no morals or ethics, but slavishly do what they are told by what they believe to be some entity vastly superior to themselves. This is an exercise in submission to mental slavery and abnegation of any moral responsibility, making it possible to justify acts of terrorism, genocide, etc., because, well, god says it's ok.

A christian, as a christian, has no understanding of morals or ethics. That's why the only thing outside their narrow niche is "survival of the fittest", despite the fact that they advocate a notion which is equivalent, as the people with the omnipotent god on their side are of course the fittest.

To understand the notion of ethics and morality, one has to have a perspective outside christianity.

(This is not to say that christians can have morals, despite their christianity. That's why, for example, some American christians opposed slavery.)

You do realize that the survival of the fittest comes from the Atheist evolution theory right? I

You do realize slavery comes from the bible, don't you? -- At least that would be your logic in my position.

Survival of the fittest is a means of describing a natural phenomenon, a description which you would find apt if you watched nature for a while. However, when you put on clothing and started to hunt in co-ordinated packs, you started to leave nature.

Now please go back to the post that you have yet to deal with, because of your misguided preconceptions, and see what you make of it with a little sustained effort.

spin

arnoldo · 01-21-2008, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

"If you mean Israelis -- you continue to mix Jews with Israelisspin

Sorry, the Israelis, Jews, whatever term you like are the children of Abraham, thus the proof of Israel is proof of God's existence. Your orwellian doublespeak/newthink does not apply.

BTW: The palestinians are also children of Abraham, however through Ishmael, the promises of God are through Isaac.:wave:

Jack the Bodiless · 01-21-2008, 06:02 AM

So the existence of Greeks are proof of the existence of the Greek gods too?

arnoldo · 01-21-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

In point of fact, there is one Palestinian govt. already in Gaza.

Point of fact, The State of Palestine, does not exist. There is no nation on earth, or will there ever be a a nation on earth called the State of Palestine. Israel belongs in the land promised to Abraham. Sorry the promises belongs to the descendants of isaac not Ishmael. Israel continue to be proof of God's existence, the fact that it will never be uprooted again in the future is absolute proof of this.

spin · 01-21-2008, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The Partition of Palestine (a future thread) was not a partition to create a Jewish state but a home land for both Jews and Arabs with the Arabs being the Majority. Land promised to the Jews was given to Transjordan, and Jerusalem was to be a U.N. controled site. The White Paper limited the number of Jews allowed to this land. If the Partition of Palestine was meant to Restore Israel then why are they opposing Israel?

The partition of Palestine was meant to be a relatively equitable means of allowing two peoples to share the same territory -- cut it sort of in half. It's just that the Zionists started a war because they thought they could simply get rid of the Palestinians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Why are they trying to snatch Jerusalem out of Israeli hands.

Before the Zionists clawed their way into Palestine, Jerusalem had been occupied by Arabs for more time than the Jews ever did. The second holiest site of all of islam is in Jerusalem. The city should be shared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Indeed why are they forcing Israel to give up land that it obtained in war, land that was originally promised them in the first place?

Fundamentally, property obtained through war is a criminal act. It is survival of the fittest. There is no moral justification for allowing some group to steal because they have better weapons, more money, better trained helots.

The promise mentioned included the statement: "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Critics like all bible prophecy will reject it even when it is unfolding right before their eyes, why?

You are in no position to make the assumption underlying your question because you cannot see the future. So, obviously, your rhetorical response is meaningless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Simple because Israel proves that God exist. Adios

Oh, you're such a daydreamer, sugarhitman.

spin

arnoldo · 01-21-2008, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

So the existence of Greeks are proof of the existence of the Greek gods too?

Do you think the Modern day Greeks' believe in the ancient greek gods? Your absurd question is not valid.

spin · 01-21-2008, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

"If you mean Israelis -- you continue to mix Jews with Israelisspin

Sorry, the Israelis, Jews, whatever term you like are the children of Abraham, thus the proof of Israel is proof of God's existence.

You're having difficulties understanding your own problems. You are falling over your own language. "Jew" and "Israeli" do not refer to the same thing. An Israeli is someone who lives in Israel. A Jew is someone descended from the population who lived in Judea before the fall of the second temple. Very many Jews live outside of Israel. Very few Israelis do. A number of Palestinians are actually Israelis, be it that they are second class citizens. Israelis are the people of modern Israel. Your assumptions about Jews are not applicable to Israelis.

Many devout Jews are against the existence of Israel. Many children of Abraham live throughout the world. Many children of Abraham, the lost tribes have been absorbed into other national groups and they ain't going to fulfill your little prophecy. Hence you are misguided here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Your orwellian doublespeak/newthink does not apply.

This is a cover-up attempt for your poor categorizations. You shouldn't say Jews when you are referring to Israelis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

BTW: The palestinians are also children of Abraham, however through Ishmael, the promises of God are through Isaac.:wave:

I'd love you to demonstrate the fact rather than repeat believe old traditions.

spin

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01-21-2008, 03:19 AM	#553
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	The Partition of Palestine (a future thread) was not a partition to create a Jewish state but a home land for both Jews and Arabs with the Arabs being the Majority. Land promised to the Jews was given to Transjordan, and Jerusalem was to be a U.N. controled site. The White Paper limited the number of Jews allowed to this land. If the Partition of Palestine was meant to Restore Israel then why are they opposing Israel? Why are they trying to snatch Jerusalem out of Israeli hands. Indeed why are they forcing Israel to give up land that it obtained in war, land that was originally promised them in the first place? Critics like all bible prophecy will reject it even when it is unfolding right before their eyes, why? Simple because Israel proves that God exist. Adios

01-21-2008, 06:02 AM	#556
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	So the existence of Greeks are proof of the existence of the Greek gods too?

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