Peter Kirby

I'm looking for the strongest arguments to the effect that Paul disbelieved in a Jesus who was on earth. (Or, as sometimes stated positively, that Paul believed Jesus operated in a supraterrestrial/sublunar sphere for his birth, death, and resurrection.)

Proof by link not allowed. Spell out the premises and the logic used to reach the conclusion; supporting details can be supported by cite of course.

The argument from ignorance is also disallowed. ("Prove the opposite, sucka!" is not an argument. Start your own thread if you want proofs of the opposite.)

If you want to note that an obsession with Paul is ahistorical and that there were other authors of the first century of Christian existence, you may also appeal to those other authors and place them historically in your argument.

Thank you for all serious comment.

Peter Kirby

To make an argument from the silence of posters is dangerous, but...this is a bump.

Clouseau

Paul's letters reveal at least two sayings of Jesus not otherwise found in the Bible. Paul actually states that Jesus was 'born of a woman' and makes much of the 'suffering servant' theme. His general lack of reference to the ministry of Jesus can be explained by his assumption that his readers were already familiar with that ministry. Paul's theology as as rooted in OT teaching as anyone's, as one might expect from an ex-Pharisee, and the Messiah was certainly expected to be 'God with us' on the earth, and was expected by some to be a very earthly, political leader.

gnosis92

Doherty's argument is that there are many instances in which Gospel Jesus details would have bolstered Paul's argument in his letters, for example, Jesus' resurrection of Jairus and Lazarus in the Gospels would have bolstered Paul's arguments in 1 Thes of the general resurrection.

While I do agree Doherty has a good point, and that there are aspects where Paul speaks of Jesus in the most exalted manner, I think Ehrman's explanation, that Paul believed in a general resurrection, as did most first century Jews, and Jesus was the first fruit, and the apocalpyse was nearing, explains Pauls lack of Jesus-gospel details.

Peter Kirby

Wrong thread, you guys. I'm still waiting for a positive statement of the case.

GakuseiDon

I'll present a few from Doherty's website, though positive claims backed up by references are surprisingly hard to find. Here are three from here:
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/parttwo.htm

1. Paul appears to describe Christ as a "mystery" about whom information came from scripture rather than from people who met him

Rather, the Son is a spiritual concept, just as God himself is, and every other deity of the day. None of them are founded on historical figures. The existence of this divine Son has hitherto been unknown; he has been a secret, a "mystery" hidden with God in heaven (e.g., Romans 16:25-27, Colossians 2:2). Information about this Son has been imbedded in scripture. Only in this final age has God himself (through his Spirit) inspired apostles like Paul to learn—from scripture and visionary experiences—about his Son and what he had done for humanity's salvation. And this Son was soon to arrive from heaven, at the imminent end of the present world.

If we remove Gospel associations from our minds, we find that this is exactly what Paul and the others are telling us. God is revealing Christ (as in the Galatians quote above), apostles inspired by God's Spirit are preaching him, believers are responding through faith. Ephesians 3:4-5 shows us the main elements of the new drama. "The mystery about Christ, which in former generations was not revealed to men [not even by Jesus himself, apparently], is now disclosed to dedicated apostles and prophets through the Spirit [by divine revelation]." God's Spirit, the divine power which inspires men like Paul, is the engine of the new revelation. All knowledge comes through this Spirit, with no suggestion that anything has been received from an historical Jesus and his ministry.

2. Paul uses words (like "phaneroo") that suggest to the careful eye that there is little room for any recent life and work of Jesus

The words of the first century writers never speak of Jesus' arrival or life on earth. Rather, they speak of his revelation, of his manifestation by God. 1 Peter 1:20 says: "Predestined from the foundation of the world, (Christ) was manifested for your sake in these last times." Here the writer uses the Greek word "phaneroo", meaning to manifest or reveal. Romans 3:25 says: "God set him forth (Christ Jesus) as a means of atonement by his blood, effective through faith." Here Paul uses a verb which, in this context, means "to declare publicly," reveal to public light. God is revealing Christ and the atonement he has made available to those who believe. Other passages, like Romans 16:25-27, Colossians 1:26 and 2:2, Titus 1:2-3, contain similar statements about the current unveiling of long-hidden divine secrets, and the careful eye that reads them can see that no room has been made for any recent life and work of Jesus.

3. Early writers seemed to place Christ's death outside normal realm of time and space

But where and when had this intermediary Son performed the redeeming act itself?

Christ's self-sacrificing death was located "in times eternal," or "before the beginning of time" (pro chronon aionion). This is the second key phrase in 2 Timothy 1:9 and elsewhere. What is presently being revealed is something that had already taken place outside the normal realm of time and space. This could be envisioned as either in the primordial time of myth, or, as current Platonic philosophy would have put it, in the higher eternal world of ideas, of which this earthly world, with its ever-changing matter and evolving time, is only a transient, imperfect copy (more on this later). The benefits of Christ's redemptive act lay in the present, through God's revelation of it in the new missionary movement, but the act itself had taken place in a higher world of divine realities, in a timeless order, not on earth or in history. It had all happened in the sphere of God, it was all part of his "mystery." The blood sacrifice, even seeming biographical details like Romans 1:3-4, belong in this dimension.

wordy

Peter, I'm not able to live up to your expectations. I'm most likely something of a functionalist when it comes to Jesus and if he is HJ or MJ.

Jesus is a functional tool for the believers, they don't give a damn if he is HJ or MJ cause to them he emerge alive when they "functionally" behave as believers.

As Doherty spells out here that seems to me very close to how the late Anthropologist Roy Rappaport explain all religion to be functionally constructed.

The very act of meeting together in a group of likeminded and to "ritually" read and act as believers makes "the truth of Jesus being alive there and then during the communion" ok not a verbatim citation but as I understand Rappaport. Try to find good citations from his book.
Ritual and Religion in the Making of Humanity (or via: amazon.co.uk)

He is very academic in his wordings but maybe your used to that kind of logic. I find much truth in his views. Despite me being very skeptical to social science overall. He is onto or unto something important there. I think Paul if he existed had that intuitive sense too and that is why he was so effective in evangelizing. He behaves as "Jesus Camp" people.

If you behave like a "Jesus Camp" believer then there is no need for either HJ nor MJ cause the very act of relating to Jesus as if he is alive and there for you at that moment does manifest him to be alive as an experience, it is a self-fulfilling faith. It has found a way to be failproof, non-falsifiable, it creates the truth it has as the axioms of the faith.

That would work for empathic atheists too that is good at mirroring others feelings. I tested this on myself as a strong atheist and I felt Jesus to love me and care for me and to actually give me words to preach. It is like auto-hypnose. One need to be suggestable though.

Same strategy as Freudian and Jungian Psychoanalysis. There is no way to find it to fail if your deep in it, your hooked on it. But it needs the constant emotional fix by meeting weekly to keep the faith alive. Ok could be very individually in that some never doubt and others constantly doubt. But if they never go to meetings it slowly fade away.