Toto

primitivefuture: This is a forum for the critical discussion of the history and texts of Christianity and other Abrahamic religions. It is not a forum for posting religious apologetics written by others. Please do not copy large blocks of text, and please provide a link or a citation when you post words of others.

Do not expect this forum to be impressed with recitations of religious scripture, or with the argument that only Islamic sources should be read to understand Islam, or that only Christians should be consulted in order to understand Christian texts.

Thank you for your consideration.

Toto

primitivefuture

hmm..someone is too smart to notice a typo

Biased? Where do you think people get their information on Islam from? MUSLIMS.

That is why I joined this forum. To realize atheist criticism on Islam and look for the Muslim view of it. That is how I learn.

I didnt not get hot, silly Some people just lack common sense.

WWJD4aKlondikeBar

You missed 't' and typed 'cy'...and that's a typo? Don't worry, I make up words all the time, you big grfnkl you.

Historians, anthropologists, geologists and philosophers to name a few. The less interested in coloring the "evidence" the better.

primitivefuture

They get their information from Muslim sources.

mountainman

The plot: A Good God is delivered to Roman crucifixion.
Moral to the story: dont f**k with the Romans.

Good propaganda at the time.

The generations of the Islamic scholars from whom we learn of the life
of the prophet muhammad, wrote of another besides Jesus. They wrote
of a figure called "Balinas" or "Balinus" (Apollonius of Tyana).

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essene...of%20Tyana.htm


Understandings are supposed to be more open ended,
for example the emergence of new religions in the intervening
period, such as the Bahai faith. Obviously all this depends
upon the frame of reference you choose by which to gauge
life itself.



Pete Brown

Blui

If by 'original' you mean the very first, no that does not exist currently, if it ever did.

The Quran as we have it now, is unknown whether it is authentically original and complete.

There are tons of stories in the Sahih Bukhari of incomplete verses.

For example, Uthman (A caliphate i think) ordered the standardisation and burning of all other different Qurans

Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sha'm and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to Uthman, 'O Chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa, saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent It to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah bin az-Zubair, Sa'id bin al-As, and Abdur-Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of the Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.
-Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.479

Also as to the OP, if you want to read the Quran in english translation without buying anything, the skeptics annotated bible webpage also has the Quran in english.

Iasion

Greetings,

The history of the Quran's formation shows it is anything but perfect -

1. The Quran was not finalised until well after Mohamed's death
2. Much was lost at Yamama
3. Variant Qurans existed in the early days
4. The variants were different to modern Qurans
5. Abu Bakr collected his version from scraps and memories
6. Abu Bakr's version faded early from importance
7. Uthmann chose Abu Bakr's version for political expediency
8. Utmann et al made changes to the new version
9. Muslims criticised Uthmann for destroying the Quran
10. Muslims crticised the new version as missing passages
11. Later changes were made to the Quran
12. Variant readings of the Quran exist to this day

This all goes to show the Quran is a book made by people who chose between different versions, added to it, changed it, left out parts etc. etc.

Details follow :

Quran not written down or finalised during Mohamed's lifetime.

The Quran was not collected in writing in Mohamed's time :

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr as-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed. Then Abu Bakr said : "... you should search for the Qur'an and collect it ". By Allah! ... Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"... (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.477).

A great part of the Quran was only recited shortly before Mohamed's death :

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah sent down his Divine Inspiration to His Apostle (saw) continuously and abundantly during the period preceding his death till He took him unto Him. That was the period of the greatest part of revelation, and Allah's Apostle (saw) died after that. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.474).


This shows that the Quran was not collected or written down, or finalised before Mohamed's death - the Quran only formed years after Mohamed.

Some of the Quran was lost to posterity :

Many passages were lost at the battle of Yamama :

Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.23).

This loss of some of the Quran inspired Abu Bakr to begin collecting it.

Other Qurans existed in the early days

The variant Quran of Salim existed before Yamama and before Abu Bakr's (Zaid's) version (Salim was killed in the battle) :

It is reported ... from Ibn Buraidah who said: "The first of those to collect the Qur'an into a book was Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifah". (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.135).

(This contradicts the claim that Abu Bakr collected the first Quran.)

Abdullah ibn Masud was considered the foremost authority on the Quran by Mohamed - his Quran was used in Kufa in Iraq.

The Quran of Abu Bakr (first Caliph) passed to Umar (2nd Caliph) then to Hafsah (daughter of Umar and "wife of the prophet"). Hafsah became a recluse and kept the Abu Bakr Quran hidden away. During this period there is no evidence that this version was considered more important or accurate than other versions such as Abdullah ibn Masud's or Salim's - on the contrary, it was left unpublicsed and kept away from public view.

The Quran of Ubayy ibn Ka'b was favoured in Syria.

The Quran was collected from scattered memory and written materials

Following the losses at Yamama, Abu Bakr is generally considered the first to collect the Quran :

It is reported ... from Ali who said: "May the mercy of Allah be upon Abu Bakr, the foremost of men to be rewarded with the collection of the manuscripts, for he was the first to collect (the text) between (two) covers". (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.5)

Abu Bakr entrusted the collection of the Quran to Zaid bin Thabit :

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr as-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed. Then Abu Bakr said : "... you should search for the Qur'an and collect it ". By Allah! ... Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"... (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.477).

Zaid had to collect his version of the Quran from many scattered and different sources :

So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from palm-leaf stalks, thin white stones, and also from the men who knew it by heart, ...

Significantly, some passages were recovered from only ONE source :
...till I found the last verse of Surat at-Tauba (repentance) with Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.478).


Disputes about different versions of the Qurans lead to the first official version

About 20 years after Mohamed, an expedition under Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman, made up of fighters from various regions, lead to disputes about different versions of the Quran.

Uthmann (3rd Caliph) then selected one version and had the rest DESTROYED :

Hudhaifa was afraid of their differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to Uthman, 'O Chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa, saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent It to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah bin az-Zubair, Sa'id bin al-As, and Abdur-Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of the Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.479).

The reason for one Quran being chosen over the others was to prevent dissension - the version chosen was Abu Bakr's which had been hidden away for some years while other versions flourished. This shows one version was chosen for political expediency, not because it was the best version.

Abdullah ibn Mas'ud resisted this decree as his Quran was considered most authentic :

Abdullah ibn Mas'ud said, "I recited from the messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs which I had perfected before Zaid ibn Thabit had embraced Islam". (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.17).

"I acquired directly from the messenger of Allah (saw) seventy surahs when Zaid was still a childish youth - must I now forsake what I acquired directly from the messenger of Allah?" (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.15)

Early Muslims criticised Uthmann for "obliterating the Book of Allah" (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.36). At-Tabari wrote (1.6.2952) that Uthman was criticised : "The Qur'an was in many books, and you have now discredited them all but one"

It is clear that Uthmann had the new version changed in places :

Narrated Anas (ra): 'Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin az-Zubair, Sa'id bin Al-'As and 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham, and then they wrote the manuscripts (of the Qur'an). 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons, "If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the Qur'an, then write it in the language of Quraish, as the Qur'an was revealed in their language". So they acted accordingly. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.4, p.466).

This is not just changes in dialect pronunciation, as vowel points were not yet used - it means actual changes to the wording.

Those 2 verses found with ONLY Abi Khuzaima al-Ansari were apparently added to the Quran as a result of Khuzaima's initiative, under the later direction of of Uthmann:

Khuzaimah ibn Thabit said: "I see you have overlooked (two) verses and have not written them". They said "And which are they?" He replied "I had it directly from the messenger of Allah (saw) (Surah 9, ayah 128): 'There has come to you a messenger from yourselves. It grieves him that you should perish, he is very concerned about you : to the believers he is kind and merciful', to the end of the surah". Uthman said "I bear witness that these verses are from Allah". (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.11).

It seems Zaid initially left out these verses, and then added them when Khuzaima reminded him of them and Uthmann agreed they should be added.

Zaid admits to another passage being added at this later stage :

Zaid said 'I missed a verse from al-Ahzab (Surah 33) when we transcribed the mushaf (the written text of the Qur'an under Uthman's supervision). I used to hear the messenger of Allah (saw) reciting it. We searched for it and found it with Khuzaimah ibn Thabit al-Ansari: "From among the believers are men who are faithful in their covenant with Allah" (33.23). So we inserted it in the (relevant) surah in the text. (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.138).

This all goes to show how chance and human errors and opinions contributed to the late formation of the Quran.


Textual problems with Uthmann's recension:

One of the standardised Suras (2.238) was disputed in early times :

Abu Yunus, freedman of Aishah, Mother of Believers, reported: Aishah ordered me to transcribe the Holy Qur'an and asked me to let her know when I should arrive at the verse Hafidhuu alaas-salaati waas-salaatiil-wustaa wa quumuu lillaahi qaanitiin (2.238). When I arrived at the verse I informed her and she ordered: Write it in this way, Hafidhuu alaas-salaati waas-salaatiil-wustaa wa salaatiil 'asri wa quumuu lillaahi qaanitiin. She added that she had heard it so from the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him). (Muwatta Imam Malik, p.64).

Here, Aishah stated that the prophet had added the phrase "and the afternoon prayer", but this phrase is lost from the standard Quran. (Hafsah also had her scribe add this phrase.)

This variation is also recorded by Abdullah :

It is reported by Abdullah on the authority of Muhammad ibn Abdul Malik who reported from Yazid (etc.) ... It is written in the codex of Hafsah, the widow of the Prophet (saw): "Observe your prayers, especially the middle prayer and the afternoon prayer". (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.87).

The variation is also recorded by Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Umm Salama and ibn Abbas.

This is thus SIX early attestions that a passage is MISSING from the Quran of today.


The Quran of today is not complete :

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

Pasages have been lost or removed from the Quran :

We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust". ( Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p.501).

About a century after Uthmann, al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf made eleven consonantal corrections to the Quran :

Altogether al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf made eleven modifications in the reading of the Uthmanic text. ... In al-Baqarah (Surah 2.259) it originally read Lam yatasanna waandhur, but it was altered to Lam yatasannah ... In al-Ma'ida (Surah 5.48) it read Shari ya'atan wa minhaajaan but it was altered to shir 'atawwa minhaajaan. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.117).

Variant Qurans still in use

There are many DIFFERENT Qurans in use today - this is due to the lack of vowel points in early Arabic, meaning a written word can be read in varying ways. There were several early "Readers", and the way the book was recited by a Reader was recorded by various "Transmitters" - given several "transmissions" of the text.

The following list shows the commonly accepted versions (Reader -> Transmitter) and where they are used :

The Seven :

1. Nafi -> Warsh (Algeria, Morocco, parts of Tunisia, West Africa and Sudan)
Nafi -> Qalun (Libya, Tunisia, parts of Qatar).

2. Ibn Kathir -> al-Bazzi
Ibn Kathir -> Qunbul

3. Abu `Amr al-'Ala' -> al-Duri (parts of Sudan and West Africa)
Abu `Amr al-'Ala' -> al-Suri

4. Ibn `Amir -> Hisham (Parts of Yemen)
Ibn `Amir -> Ibn Dhakwan (Parts of Yemen)

5. Hamzah -> Khalaf
Hamzah -> Khallad

6. al-Qisa'i -> al-Duri
al-Qisa'i -> Abu'l-Harith

7. Abu Bakr `Asim -> Hafs (general use)
Abu Bakr `Asim -> Ibn `Ayyash (general use)


The Three :

8. Abu Ja'far -> Ibn Warden
Abu Ja'far -> Ibn Jamaz

9. Ya`qub al-Hashimi -> Ruways
Ya`qub al-Hashimi -> Rawh

10. Khalaf al-Bazzar -> Ishaq
Khalaf al-Bazzar -> Idris al-Haddad

Iasion

Clivedurdle

Uthman_Qur'an

From Uthman on Wiki

Of course, all of this is from Muslim sources, and may not be correct - for example, when exactly did Arabic become a written language?

Roger Pearse

Two questions:

1. What do you mean by 'original'? The only copy written by Mohammed himself?
2. How do you know that this manuscript is of that date, and origin?

Of course. Have any done so on a large sample? If so, who?

I daresay that the Koran is more or less as composed, for all practical purposes. But identical? For this I would have to see more than assertion, I think.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

How is this known, unless a critical comparison has been done?

All the best,

Roger Pearse