NZSkep

I agree, whilst the Allied forces may have been predominantly christian, that was not the motivation for them going to war. Hitler on the other hand certainly preached about "Gott Mit Uns" but whether he really believed that or not I don't know.

ETA: religious wars are, IMO, when the outward main reason for the war is religious. i.e. the crusades, OBL's Jihad etc.

hatsoff

I'm not sure what you're looking for. Why would I consider them secular conflicts? Because they were fought for land, economic and to some degree racial reasons. Germany invaded Prague, and ultimately Poland, not because of some religious radicalism, but rather as an economic response to the post-WWI depression. Conversely, England and the other allies declared war on Germany as a result of political alliances, not religious fanaticism.

Obviously Japan's invasion of China had nothing to do with Christianity, nor did the trade freeze which influenced their decision to attack the United States. And the US could hardly be expected to ignore that attack, Christian or not.

Djugashvillain

When I asked you to elaborate I wasn't disagreeing with you: your post just lacked an explanation of your position; it was simple statement.

I agree that the wars were not fought for explicitly religious reasons. When I said that atheists commiting mass murder does not mean that mass murder was commited on behalf of atheism also applies to murderous Christians. The Albigensian Crusade is an example of Christian aggression on behalf of Christian ideology; German aggression in World War I is not.

However--as I have already said concerning Nazi Germany--, even though the reasons for going to war were due in large part to inflated nationalism brought about by anger and frustration over the constrictive and humiliating Versailles Treaty, the holocaust was only made possible by a Europe-wide (it was never German specific--even the US had a formidable fascist movement) anti-Semitic tradition that sprung directly from Christian bigotry. The Jews were charged with murdering Christ and equated with the politically powerful and corrupt Pharisees, and were thus, by association, equated with being politically powerful and corrupt in the modern day; this apparent power and corruption, and corruption means conspiracy (hence The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion), was then used as a means to blame the Jews for Germany's political, social and economic problems; thus, in short, the social conditions that allowed for the holocaust.

It was the by-product of Christian anti-Semitism that gave the Nazis the ideological base with which to isolate a popular and already embedded scapegoat for Germany's problems, to manufacture an atmosphere of imminent danger at the hands of this scapegoat as a means of public mobilisation towards war, domestic and international, against anything that was seen as being, if not Jewish, at least controlled by Jews, and then to systematically accumulate and murder any one related to them, biologically or ideologically (communists), as a physical manifestation of German nationalism and racial purification. World War II may have been a secular war, but the conditions that made it possible were caused in large part by the exploitation of an established Christian anti-Semitism.

hatsoff

I'm not sure why you would think that. Christianity may have inflamed tensions to some unknown degree, but racism permeates Christian and non-Christian societies alike. I may be missing something, but I don't see why the Germans should not have been racist were they not Christian. Were they even predominantly Christian?

But was this indictment for the murder of Christ the chicken or the egg?

Djugashvillain

Nationalism inflamed the Christian-born tensions from disorganised to institutionalised racism.

A little bit of both, to be difficult. While anti-Semitism existed before the execution of Jesus as a part of general xenophobia, it was only after Christianity was made a large-scale state religion across much of Europe that a specific and powerful anti-Semitism came into existence. So, rather than fearing Jews through a general xenophobic mindset, the Jews now, having murdered Jesus and become increasingly linked with money-lending and corruption, were becoming a specific racial enemy apart. It was an added religious significance that exaggerated and isolated anti-Semitism from other kinds of racism, and it was this added significance that made it easier to exploit effectively in Nazi Germany when stoked with political and economic tensions.

Furthermore, while all anti-Semitism was not directly bound up with religion by 1933, its very existence as a powerful and unique brand of racism is directly linked a xenophobic Christian culture.

hatsoff

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the money-lending stigma was based on Catholics forbidding such activities. The Jews, not subject to Church edicts, therefore flourished in these un-Christian practices.

If true, that would link Christianity more closely with anti-Semitism.

And to some extent you're absolutely right. This speculation is entirely plausible--a natural hypothesis. But speculation it is, and not testable.

Djugashvillain

Such is the nature of history, I'm afraid. We can say as fact that the holocaust occured, but we cannot say as fact why it occured. It is a question of motive and influence: one can present a convincing, reasonable and historically accurate analysis, but one can never call it fact. That's why I love history. Most people think it is just rote memorisation of dates and events, when in actuality that's a very small, yet necessary, part of it. Much of it is interpretation and speculation, making history a powerful tool. Both Hitler and Stalin knew this, both being obsessed by history (Stalin had a fetish for Ivan IV, Hitler for Bismarck).

As for Church edicts, I'm not sure, though it would solve the problem of why money-lenders were perdominantly Jewish, being immune to Church law.

Iasion

Greetings all,

Well,
a poster called "Djugashvillain"
talking about Stalin.

Am I really the first to notice the connection?
:-)


Iasion

Djugashvillain

Yes, you are. :thumbs:

Vorkosigan

That's high comedy. I expect Bede's arguments to be pretty lame, but I never imagined he'd sink to the rantings of acne-n-Jesus crowd.

The reason that Stalin and Mao killed is the same one for which Christians have murdered each other and outsiders for the last 2,000 years: they locate their moral authority in a transcendent Other that lies outside themselves, thus legitimating anything they do. Christianity and Communism are identical exemplars of authority-worship, just as Islam, Fascism, and similar beliefs are. The killing will stop when we get rid of the idea that there are objective moralities like The Laws of History or The Commandments of God.

Vorkosigan