Apikorus

The leading Y is a bit long there, granted. A similarly long Y is found in )$YT from fragment 3 (see above). The final character in YR)W is hard to make out due to the faintness of the text. While Y and W are generally distinguishable throughout the fragments, some identifications are largely based on context, and some are provisional and uncertain. I think that K)RW vs. K)RY in fragment 9 is one of those uncertain cases. As I said, I wouldn't bet the farm on K)RW but if I had to guess I'd put $10 on K)RW. If you were to say that it looks more like K)RY to you, or that we simply can't tell, I wouldn't strenuously object.

Perhaps upon a close examination of the fragment, or through use of a microscope, ultraviolet light, etc., the reading becomes more secure. Lacking expertise in palaeography, I've reached (or even exceeded) my limits for useful comment.

spin

The length of the letter, whatever it is, is dictated by the last stroke of the ALEF, ie it cannot be any longer than it is now, which is also the case of all the final YODs in frag 9.

That final letter looks in form quite similar to the initial letter though it is smaller. They both even have the same sort of tittle at the top. Can you say that it is not a YOD? This is the sort of crux we are dealing with when identifying the last letter of K)R-. I don't believe you can: you have to rely on the MT tradition. I think it is totally arbitrary to distinguish the last letter of K)R- from any of the last letters I have brought the thread's attention to. The size doesn't make it any difference, for all the final YODs are the same size. The fact that it goes down below the RESH only says that the RESH is impeded by the previous ALEF. Its shape doesn't distinguish it from the YOD at the end of AZRTY or even (CMWTY.

This means size shape and its descent in relation to the other letters doesn't distinguish it. I can't see how anyone can say that it is more likely to be a WAW. In the other cases the decision is made because of what we know of the grammar and the relationship with the MT tradition. We depart from the MT tradition to argue for a WAW as the last letter of K)R-. We can happily concur with the MT with the other cases, so why the arbitrary choice here?

This seems like gut reaction here!

Yet you will favor the WAW!


spin

Apikorus

Throughout the fragments, in most cases W is longer that Y and is hence distinguishable from Y. I see the final character in K)RW/Y as a bit longer than the following Y of YDY. So in that context it looks more like a W to me. I acknowledge, as I myself have pointed out here, that elsewhere in the text there are some long Y's which could easily be taken for W. This fact, plus the faintness of frg. 9 itself, mitigates strongly against any firm conclusion.

Another reason to suspect a W here is the fact that the ancient versions all report a verb in the third person plural (the Targum reports a verb and a noun -- "they bite like a lion"). Another detail concerns the defective spelling of )RY -- elsewhere in the psalter it appears as )RYH.

spin

That would not be hard though. There is a flaw of some sort below the first few letters of YDYH (sic). The DALET is as short as the first YOD and shorter than the second.

But I have been talking strictly of final characters. I don't get why you talk of the following YOD.

Fragments have been worked on that were in worse shape than this one!

This is insertion of a verb to match the dogs and preserve the text of K)RY as found in the MT. I don't think you should read too much into it.

This last makes me think of YDYH, with that HE at the end.


spin

JoeWallack

JW:
As I've said, I think the combination of similar lengths of W and Y and a badly faded text precludes any definite conclusion. This is where Strawn and Swenson are I think. I suppose if I was tortured (or at least threatened with torture) I would quickly confess that I think the length of the vertical line of the offending letter looks to be about the same length as the vertical line of the preceding R which favors Y. Sounds like you agree now with my primary conclusion that it is unclear what the offending letter is (even though if you had to choose, you would choose W).

Can you comment on the following observations I've made here for this Scroll:

1) The Vertical lines of the Y are generally the same length as the vertical line of the preceding letter?

2) The Vertical lines of the W are generally a little longer than the vertical line of the preceding letter?

3) The length of the Vertical line is the most remarkable characteristic of Y and W?

4) The best test for determination of a Y or W is to compare the Vertical length with that of the preceding letter.

Regarding your comparison of the offending letter with the first letter of the next word, isn't the Vertical line of the Y for the final word about the same length as the Vertical line of the following D? Isn't comparison of Vertical length within a word a superior test to comparison between words?

JW
Would you like some visine? When we look beyond what the offending letter looks like the situation is the Unusual Verses the Unknown. The lack of a Verb for K)RY is Unusual. K)RW is Unknown. Which is normally more likely A, the Unusual or the Unknown? In Order to determine likely Original Hebrew we should should be concentrating on Hebrew in this Order:

1) Textual evidence - indicates K)RY.

2) Commentary - indicates K)RY. BC, a Christian, appears to be the first to actively look for K)RW, admittedly relatively late, and though his report has conflicting evidence, I take it to indicate K)RY likely Original.

3) Context - haven't gotten this far yet but certainly "like a lion" fits remarkably well in this Psalm and lack of an explicit verb fits the entire theme of the Psalm that the Psalmist is Threatened but not yet harmed. Wouldn't make a holy lot of sense asking to be saved after you were attacked by wild animals.

The confusion we've seen here between Y and W in this scroll and even more so for script of the previous century helps explain the variation of the Greek. Without a Y they didn't recognize the word. Also, the alternating spelling of "lion" is found elsewhere in the Tanakh.



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
What a rush. Ookay, getting back to the Masoretic. Per Yeiven, A Source for Kittels' (Christian) textual variation in BHS was Kennicott's (Christian) Vetus Testamentum hebraicum cum variis lectionibus (1776-1780) which included 615 Hebrew manuscripts and 52 printed editions.

The only thing we could clearly see from Nahal Hever is that Flint's (Christian) conclusion of K)RW could only be based on Faith and not scholarship. According to Yeiven some of the Manuscripts in Kennicott's inventory are of poor quality. I for one would like to know exactly which Manuscripts supposedly have K)RW and look at the offending word for myself. I can't help wondering if any of these were specifically written with K)RW for a Christian owner or have a questionable reading like Nahal Hever.

According to BHS there are 3-10 Manuscripts with K)RW and 2 with KRW. We need to identify exactly which Manuscripts Kennicott identifed as having either Variation.



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Per Yeiven, Another Source for Kittels' (Christian) textual variation in BHS was De Rossi's (Christian) Mss. Codices hebraici biblioth. (Parma, 1803), "de Rossi’s three-volume catalog, describing 1377 of the Hebrew manuscripts in his personal collection" which apparently has never been translated into English.

Again, I would like to know exactly which Manuscripts supposedly have K)RW and look at the offending word for myself. I can't help wondering if any of these were specifically written with K)RW for a Christian owner or have a questionable reading like Nahal Hever.

According to BHS there are 3-10 Manuscripts with K)RW and 2 with KRW. We need to identify exactly which Manuscripts Kennicott and De Rossi identifed as having either Variation.



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Apparently Steven is praying that Jesus SOON returns so he can just ask Jesus for evidence that KRW means "they pierced". Until that happens, just to give the Objective seeker some idea of the diffiCulty of trying to dig a meaning of "Pierce" out of the Hebrew root KRH I present the following. Enjoy!:

The following is the entry for KRH in Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon which is part of the Logos research system, a standard study guide for the Seminary (Christian). Emphasis mine saith the Lord:

"�*I. כָּרָה S3738, 3739, 3741 TWOT1033, 1033a, 1034 GK4125, 4126, 4127, 4128, 4129 vb. '''dig''' (NH id.; Aramaic כְּרָא, Ethiopic ከረየ (karaya) Arabic كَرَا (karā) (c. و (w) and especially ى (y), Dozy ii. 461); Syriac ܟܪܳܐ (kro) is be short, cut off (i.e. rounded off?), Arabic كُرَةٌ (kuratun) ball; T כְּרֵי heap Dalm Gr 109; Syriac ܟܰܪܝܳܐ (karyo), Mish. כרי id.; Assyrian karê, large vessels for holding corn, etc., DlHWB 353, cf. kirû (dub.) Wkl TelAm. Vocab.; Ba ZMG 1887, 615 conjectures be round as orig. √ meaning, and comp. Arabic السَّاقُ كَرِيَتِ (˒s-sāqu kariyati) the leg is round);—Qal Pf. 3 ms. כָּרָה 2 '''Ch 16:14''' ψ '''7:16'''; 2 ms. כָּרִיתָ ψ '''40:7'''; 1 s. כָּרִיתִי '''Gn 50:5'''; 3 pl. כָּרוּ '''Je 18:20''' + 3 times; sf. כָּרוּהָ '''Nu 21:18'''; Impf. 3 ms. יִכְרֶה E'''x 21:33'''; 3 mpl. וַיִּכְרוּ '''Gn 26:25'''; Pt. כֹּרֶה '''Pr 16:27'''; 26:27;—dig a grave, קֶבֶר '''Gn 50:5''' (J), cf. '''2 Ch 16:14'''; a well, בְּאֵר '''Gn 26:25''' (J), '''Nu 21:18''' (song in JE); a pit, בֹּור '''Ex 21:33'''; fig. of plotting against others ψ 7:16; so sq. שׁוּחָה '''Je 18:20''', 22, sq. שִׁיחָה ψ '''57:7'''; '''119:85'''; sq. שַ֔חַת '''Pr 26:27'''; hence כֹּרֶה רָעָה '''Pr 16:27''' one digging a calamity; אָזְ�*ַיִם כ׳ לִי ψ '''40:7''' ears hast thou dug (with allusion to the cavity of the ear) for me, thou hast given me the means of hearing and obeying thy will.—On ψ '''22:17''' v. II. כּוּר. Niph. Impf. 3 ms. עַד יִכָּרֶה שַׁחַת ψ '''94:13''' until the pit be digged for the wicked, fig. of judgment.


�* prefixed, or added, or both, indicates ‘All passages cited.’
S Strong’s Concordance
TWOT Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.
GK Goodrick/Kohlenberger numbering system of the NIV Exhaustive Condordance.
vb. verb.
NH New (Late) Hebrew.
c. circa, about; also cum, with.
Dozy R. Dozy, (usually) Supple. aux Dict. Arabes.
T Targum.
Dalm G. Dalman.
Gr H. Grätz.
Mish. Mishna.
Dl Freidrich Delitzsch, Assyriches Handwörterbuch;
cf. confer, compare.
dub. dubious, doubtful.
Wkl H. Winckler.
TelAm. TA, q.v..
Ba J. Barth.
ZMG Zeitschrift d. deutsch. Morgenländ. Gesellschaft.
√ root or stem.
comp. compare, compares, comparative.
Pf. Perfect.
ms. masculine singular.
pl. plural.
+ plus, denotes often that other passages, etc., might be cited. So also where the forms of verbs, nouns, and adjectives are illustrated by citations, near the beginning of articles; while ‘etc.’ in such connexions commonly indicates that other forms of the word occur, which it has not been thought worth while to cite.
sf. suffix, or with suffix.
Impf. Imperfect.
mpl. masculine plural.
Pt. Participle.
J Jehovist.
fig. figurative.
sq. followed by.
v. vide, see.

Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. 2000. Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. Strong's, TWOT, and GK references Copyright 2000 by Logos Research Systems, Inc. (electronic ed.) . Logos Research Systems: Oak Harbor, WA"


JW:
There are secondary meanings for this root as well but besides being much fewer in use they are also much farther in meaning from the Christian polemically desired "pierced". Following are the uses per the above Lexical entry in the Jewish Bible with emphasis mine saith the Lord:


Genesis 26:25
:And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac’s servants digged a well.

25 וַיִּ֧בֶן שָׁ֣ם מִזְבֵּ֗חַ וַיִּקְרָא֙ בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֔ה וַיֶּט־שָׁ֖ם אָהֳלֹ֑ו וַיִּ'''כְרוּ'''־שָׁ֥ם עַבְדֵי־יִצְחָ֖ק בְּאֵֽר׃


Genesis 50:5
:My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again.

5 אָבִ֞י הִשְׁבִּיעַ֣�*ִי לֵאמֹ֗ר הִ�*ֵּ֣ה אָ�*ֹכִי֮ מֵת֒ בְּקִבְרִ֗י אֲשֶׁ֨ר '''כָּרִ֤י'''תִי לִי֙ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ כְּ�*ַ֔עַן שָׁ֖מָּה תִּקְבְּרֵ֑�*ִי וְעַתָּ֗ה אֶֽעֱלֶה־�*ָּ֛א וְאֶקְבְּרָ֥ה אֶת־אָבִ֖י וְאָשֽׁוּבָה׃


Exodus 21:33
:And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;

33 וְכִֽי־יִפְתַּ֨ח אִ֜ישׁ בֹּ֗ור אֹ�*ו כִּֽי־יִ'''כְרֶ֥ה''' אִ֛ישׁ בֹּ֖ר וְלֹ֣א יְכַסֶּ֑�*ּוּ וְ�*ָֽפַל־שָׁ֥מָּה שֹּׁ֖ור אֹ֥ו חֲמֹֽור׃


Numbers 21:18
:The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver, with their staves. And from the wilderness they went to Mattanah:

18 בְּאֵ֞ר חֲפָר֣וּהָ שָׂרִ֗ים '''כָּר֙וּ'''הָ֙ �*ְדִיבֵ֣י הָעָ֔ם בִּמְחֹקֵ֖ק בְּמִשְׁעֲ�*ֹתָ֑ם וּמִמִּדְבָּ֖ר מַתָּ�*ָֽה׃


2 Chronicles 16:14
:And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds of spices prepared by the apothecaries’ art: and they made a very great burning for him.

14 וַיִּקְבְּרֻ֣הוּ בְקִבְרֹתָ֗יו אֲשֶׁ֣ר '''כָּֽרָה'''־לֹו֮ בְּעִ֣יר דָּוִיד֒ וַיַּשְׁכִּיבֻ֗הוּ בַּמִּשְׁכָּב֙ אֲשֶׁ֤ר מִלֵּא֙ בְּשָׂמִ֣ים וּזְ�*ִ֔ים מְרֻקָּחִ֖ים בְּמִרְקַ֣חַת מַעֲשֶׂ֑ה וַיִּשְׂרְפוּ־לֹ֥ו שְׂרֵפָ֖ה גְּדֹולָ֥ה עַד־לִמְאֹֽד׃ פ


Psalm 7:15
:He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

16 בֹּ֣ור '''כָּ�*רָֽה''' וַֽיַּחְפְּרֵ֑הוּ וַ֝יִּפֹּ֗ל בְּשַׁ֣חַת יִפְעָֽל׃


Psalm 40:6
:Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

7 זֶ֤בַח וּמִ�*ְחָ֨ה׀ לֹֽא־חָפַ֗צְתָּ אָ�*זְ�*ַיִם '''כָּרִ֣יתָ''' לִּ֑י עֹולָ֥ה וַ֝חֲטָאָ֗ה לֹ֣א שָׁאָֽלְתָּ׃


Psalm 57:6
:They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down: they have digged a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah.

7 רֶ֤שֶׁת׀ הֵכִ֣י�*וּ לִפְעָמַי֮ כָּפַ֪ף �*ַ֫פְשִׁ֥י '''כָּר֣וּ''' לְפָ�*ַ֣י שִׁיחָ֑ה �*ָפְל֖וּ בְתֹוכָ֣הּ סֶֽלָה׃


Psalm 94:13
:That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.

13 לְהַשְׁקִ֣יט לֹ֖ו מִ֣ימֵי רָ֑ע עַ֤ד יִ'''כָּרֶ֖ה''' לָרָשָׁ֣ע שָֽׁחַת׃


Psalm 119:85
:The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.

85 '''כָּֽרוּ'''־לִ֣י זֵדִ֣ים שִׁיחֹ֑ות אֲ֝שֶׁ֗ר לֹ֣א כְתֹורָתֶֽךָ׃


Proverbs 16:27
:An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.

27 אִ֣ישׁ בְּ�*לִיַּעַל '''כֹּרֶ֣ה''' רָעָ֑ה וְעַל־שְׂ֝פָ֯ת֗יֹו כְּאֵ֣שׁ צָרָֽבֶת׃


Proverbs 26:27
:Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.

27 '''כֹּֽרֶה'''־שַּׁ�*חַת בָּ֣הּ יִפֹּ֑ל וְגֹ֥לֵ֥ל אֶ֝בֶן אֵלָ֥יו תָּשֽׁוּב׃


Jeremiah 18:20
:Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.

20 הַיְשֻׁלַּ֤ם תַּֽחַת־טֹובָה֙ רָעָ֔ה כִּֽי־'''כָר֥וּ''' שׁוּחָ֖ה לְ�*ַפְשִׁ֑י זְכֹ֣ר׀ עָמְדִ֣י לְפָ�*ֶ֗יךָ לְדַבֵּ֤ר עֲלֵיהֶם֙ טֹובָ֔ה לְהָשִׁ֥יב אֶת־חֲמָתְךָ֖ מֵהֶֽם׃


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JW:
In using these usages of ''KRH'' note that Literal use in Narrative is superior to Figurative use in helping to determine primary meaning and semantic range. Figurative use introduces idioms and unusual thoughts that expand the possible use of the word, only under specific circumstances, beyond what it could be used for in direct Narrative.

Summary of usages:

Narrative: Genesis 26:25, Genesis 50:5, Exodus 21:33, Numbers 21:18, Chronicles 16:14

Figurative: Psalm 7:15, Psalm 40:6, Psalm 57:6, Psalm 94:13, Psalm 119:85, Proverbs 16:27, Proverbs 26:27, Jeremiah 18:20

For our best Category of usage to determine normal meaning, Narrative, we have 5 uses. These 5 usages have the following significant, shared characteristics:

1) Digging (Action)

2) Earth (Object of the Action)

3) Creation of something (well, grave, pit) (Result of the Action)

As we exand the usage to Figurative we have the following significant, shared characteristic for the usages:

1) In 6 uses the connected literal Action is Digging since pits are mentioned. In two uses, Psalm 40:6 and Proverbs 16:27, it's unclear if the connected literal action is digging since there is no object such as "pit" used, which is commonly associated with digging.

For Psalm 40:6 and Proverbs 16:27 let's consider if the context indicates an Action clearly preferable to digging:

Psalm 40:6
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

Note that "opened" is the translation here for the offending word. The sense seems to be enabling the ears to hear to allow understanding. The connected literal action would apparently be done to an ear to enable hearing. The most common word here to accomplish this result would be "remove". "Remove" would relate to all three significant charateristics of the Narrative meaning:

1) Digging action to remove obstruction.

2) Dirt (Earth) as Object of action.

3) Creation of hearing as Result.

Proverbs 16:27
"An ungodly man diggeth up evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire."

This is more of a straight figurative description so there is no clear connected literal Action or Object. There is the characteristic of Creation though (evil).

In summary the usage of KRH in the Jewish Bible indicates a Primary meaning of digging through earth to create something. Most figurative uses refer to this Literal meaning and while there appear to be two figurative uses that lack references to some of the Literal significant characteristics of meaning neither seems to refer to a different connected literal action.

The only evidence I've seen in this entire Thread so far for "pierced" is early on when A said:

"My own views on the matter have changed over the past years, after reading these and other articles. I still don't think the MT as it stands is coherent, but I now am far more skeptical regarding the reading "pierced"."



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
The main objection to K)RY seems to be that with a translation of "like a lion" there would be no Verb in the related sentence. The common Polemic observation is that this "makes no sense". Spin has pointed out here though, several examples of the implied verb "at" being used in Translations for this situation. This type of example is unusual in the Tanakh but here are some I Am aware of including the first with a verb other than "at":

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Psalm 114:5


Exodus 33:8


1 Kings 19:6


Psalm 30:1


Enjoy!



Joseph

TRANSLATOR, n.
One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the translator's advantage for the other to have said.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
For Spin and A:

Prague Bible

Czeck it out!:

http://www.yu.edu/libraries/pragueBible.asp

http://cdm.metro.org:8080/cdm4/docum...3&CISOSHOW=874




JW:
Is it just me or is there a H following K)RY?



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page