Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maddog · 04-29-2010, 08:26 PM

Was there any such thing as "baptism" in Jewish practice? Is there anything called "baptism" in the Hebrew Bible? Why was John the Baptist "baptising" anyone? What did "baptism" signify? Why was Jesus baptised? It seems like the concept of "baptism" sprang up all of a sudden in the NT stories, with no antecedent. If there was an antecedent Jewish or Israelite practice of, e.g., ritual cleansing with water, was it called baptism, or something else? Where did the word "baptism" come from?

I'm sure I'm misinformed ... can someone enlighten me?

#2175

aa5874 · 04-29-2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddog

Was there any such thing as "baptism" in Jewish practice? Is there anything called "baptism" in the Hebrew Bible? Why was John the Baptist "baptising" anyone? What did "baptism" signify? Why was Jesus baptised? It seems like the concept of "baptism" sprang up all of a sudden in the NT stories, with no antecedent. If there was an antecedent Jewish or Israelite practice of, e.g., ritual cleansing with water, was it called baptism, or something else? Where did the word "baptism" come from?

I'm sure I'm misinformed ... can someone enlighten me?

#2175

There was a writer, Josephus the Jew, who mentioned John the Baptist in "Antiquities of the Jews" and it is my view that the inclusion of John the Baptist in the Jesus stories is an indication the Synoptics are all after the writings of Josephus.
"Antiquities of the Jews 18.5.2

Quote:

2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist:

for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.

Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words.....

See http://wesley.nnu.edu

show_no_mercy · 04-30-2010, 07:04 AM

As I understand it, the Greek derived word "baptize" simply means "to dunk". There was a "dunking" ceremony in the Dead Sea Scrolls community, and they had what was apparently a dunking liturgy:

Quote:

And you shall cleanse him for Your holy statutes (..) for the first, the third and the sixth (...) in the truth of Your covenant (...) to cleanse oneself from uncleanness (...) and then he shall enter the water (...) And he shall say in response "Blessed are You (...) for from what comes out of Your mouth (...) men of impurity (...)

For You made me (...) Your will is that we cleanse ourselves before (...) and he established for himself a statute of atonement (...) and to be in righteous purity and he shall bathe in water and sprinkle upon (...) (...) And then they return from the water (...) cleansing His people in the waters of bathing (...) second time upon his station. And he shall say in response : "Blessed are You (...) (...) Your purification in Your glory (...) (...) eternally. And today (...).

http://www.gnosis.org/library/baptl.htm

spin · 05-02-2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

As I understand it, the Greek derived word "baptize" simply means "to dunk". There was a "dunking" ceremony in the Dead Sea Scrolls community, and they had what was apparently a dunking liturgy:

Quote:

And you shall cleanse him for Your holy statutes (..) for the first, the third and the sixth (...) in the truth of Your covenant (...) to cleanse oneself from uncleanness (...) and then he shall enter the water (...) And he shall say in response "Blessed are You (...) for from what comes out of Your mouth (...) men of impurity (...)

For You made me (...) Your will is that we cleanse ourselves before (...) and he established for himself a statute of atonement (...) and to be in righteous purity and he shall bathe in water and sprinkle upon (...) (...) And then they return from the water (...) cleansing His people in the waters of bathing (...) second time upon his station. And he shall say in response : "Blessed are You (...) (...) Your purification in Your glory (...) (...) eternally. And today (...).

http://www.gnosis.org/library/baptl.htm

The ritual bathing of the DSS is a regular (daily) act of purification. One stays pure by ritual bathing.

Baptism on the other hand is usually a one-off event, as one might expect with an initiation. What baptism really has to do with christianity is quite a mystery, as it in itself does not affect salvation in any sense. (There is a half-assed attempt to make Jesus baptize in GJn 4:1-2, which is taken back in the same sentence.) It will be justified as a symbolic act of... submission to the will of god, but symbolic acts have been reduced to a minimum with this god-on-a-stick religion. What good is baptism to this religion? Zippo, it seems. That's why I have proposed that the baptism flavor of messianism is likely to have been inherited by the new religion. Even John the baptist and his movement is irrelevant to christianity. Strangely, christianity's acceptance of John is a testimony to John, someone who had to be accounted for close to the start of the religion, though Paul shows no knowledge of John, while freely talking of baptizing.

spin

Julio · 05-18-2010, 06:28 AM

It was a ritual; it still is.
Basically, as far as I know, all Christian or quasi-Christian groups keep the practice.
I once asked a Christian if I could notice any real difference in a baptized person, from one not baptized.
He said, in real terms, very little.
Frankly, I have never observed any difference in morals or anything else between the two.
I had to ask him: What's then the need for baptism, really?

maddog · 05-18-2010, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

It was a ritual; it still is.
Basically, as far as I know, all Christian or quasi-Christian groups keep the practice.
I once asked a Christian if I could notice any real difference in a baptized person, from one not baptized.
He said, in real terms, very little.
Frankly, I have never observed any difference in morals or anything else between the two.
I had to ask him: What's then the need for baptism, really?

Yes, Christians do. But was it a Jewish rite at all? If so, why do we not hear about Jewish "baptism"? If it wasn't a Jewish ritual, where did it come from/why did it start up with the Christians?

#2268

braces_for_impact · 05-18-2010, 09:11 AM

When I was a Christian, I was taught that baptism started with John the Baptist. Jesus being baptized was a sign from god that Jesus was his son, as well as signifying that god supported John the Baptist's theology.

In secular terms I don't know much about it. If I were to guess, I would say it was probably started by some obscure Jewish cult or pagan group and was borrowed by Christianity like so many other rituals and theological points.

spin · 05-18-2010, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julio

It was a ritual; it still is.
Basically, as far as I know, all Christian or quasi-Christian groups keep the practice.
I once asked a Christian if I could notice any real difference in a baptized person, from one not baptized.
He said, in real terms, very little.
Frankly, I have never observed any difference in morals or anything else between the two.
I had to ask him: What's then the need for baptism, really?

Yes, Christians do. But was it a Jewish rite at all? If so, why do we not hear about Jewish "baptism"? If it wasn't a Jewish ritual, where did it come from/why did it start up with the Christians?

#2268

As I tried to point out earlier, the Jews were very big on ritual bathing. Beside the baths found at Masada, Qumran and the royal palaces at Jericho, baths were also found in Jerusalem.

But also as I tried to point out ritual bathing isn't baptism, which is a single rite of passage. Whereas early Jews were to bathe regularly for purity, the christians needed to get wet just once. This wasn't for purity, but to be inducted.

John the Baptist was apparently offering ordinary Jews a way to redeem themselves before the end. Baptism was something that christians inherited from an earlier messianism, or messianic expectation.

spin

Julio · 05-18-2010, 09:42 AM

Spin, I like that.
Christians that I've known get some sort of pride for being baptized.
I observed to one recently that within his theology he might get punished for being baptized, since it was a point of pride he had above the not baptized.
He laughed.
I said "You could end up going to hell for being baptized!"

aa5874 · 05-18-2010, 10:05 AM

In Corinthians 1 a Pauline writer implied that the "cross" of Jesus HAD NO EFFECT if he preached baptism.

1 Corinthians 1.13-17

Quote:

13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gai'us;

15lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16And I baptized also the household of Steph'anas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The Pauline writer was aware of the BAPTISM ritual.

04-29-2010, 08:26 PM	#1
maddog Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: nm Posts: 2,826	What is "baptism"? (e.g., "John the Baptist") Was there any such thing as "baptism" in Jewish practice? Is there anything called "baptism" in the Hebrew Bible? Why was John the Baptist "baptising" anyone? What did "baptism" signify? Why was Jesus baptised? It seems like the concept of "baptism" sprang up all of a sudden in the NT stories, with no antecedent. If there was an antecedent Jewish or Israelite practice of, e.g., ritual cleansing with water, was it called baptism, or something else? Where did the word "baptism" come from? I'm sure I'm misinformed ... can someone enlighten me? #2175

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05-18-2010, 06:28 AM	#5
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	It was a ritual; it still is. Basically, as far as I know, all Christian or quasi-Christian groups keep the practice. I once asked a Christian if I could notice any real difference in a baptized person, from one not baptized. He said, in real terms, very little. Frankly, I have never observed any difference in morals or anything else between the two. I had to ask him: What's then the need for baptism, really?

05-18-2010, 09:11 AM	#7
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	When I was a Christian, I was taught that baptism started with John the Baptist. Jesus being baptized was a sign from god that Jesus was his son, as well as signifying that god supported John the Baptist's theology. In secular terms I don't know much about it. If I were to guess, I would say it was probably started by some obscure Jewish cult or pagan group and was borrowed by Christianity like so many other rituals and theological points.

05-18-2010, 09:42 AM	#9
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	Spin, I like that. Christians that I've known get some sort of pride for being baptized. I observed to one recently that within his theology he might get punished for being baptized, since it was a point of pride he had above the not baptized. He laughed. I said "You could end up going to hell for being baptized!"

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