Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Calilasseia · 06-27-2007, 08:05 AM

Anyone else here wondering how the Egyptians managed to carry on as if nothing had happened whilst being covered by 9,000 metres of water?

For that matter, what about various other ancient civilisations - the Maya, the Chinese, assorted other eastern Mediterranean civilisations that were extant at the time, plus all those Native Americans that happened to be leaving interesting clues about their lives behind them but show no signs of having suddenly vanished and been wiped off the face of the Earth in god's version of the Diet Coke & Mintoes experiment.

Are we therefore to assume that, like certain spiders that left tracks in sand that were fossilised some time ago, all of these ancient peoples had scuba gear? Bathyscaphes? Perhaps we'll be told next that the Pyramids were the Egyptians' living quarters for the duration until the waters reached manageable levels and they could get back to tilling the land (or mud as the case may be). After all it's one way of explaining those thick walls - namely as a sort of static submarine pressure hull to withstand 900 atmospheres due to the humungous mass of water swilling around, but then I don't recall anyone (not even Smyth) testing them to see if they were watertight. Perhaps the sarcophagi were suspended animation chambers the Egyptians all climbed into so that they could doze for the duration and wake up when it was safe to come out again.

If the immediately preceding paragraph sounds absurd, then yes it is. No one in their right mind would regard the Ancient Egyptians as being a real life version of the Sub Culture game (though give either Von Däniken or Hancock enough time, they might come round to this). Yet we're supposed to believe that somehow, 9000 metres of water ended up surrounding the Earth, with only 8 people and an assortment of critters on a wooden barge surviving it, and that when the 9000 metres of water upped its sticks and left for who knows were, those 8 people and their menagerie not only repopulated the Earth, but recreated all of those exterminated civilisations faithfully right down to the minutest detail as if nothing had happened.

Next to this, the Egyptians sleeping off the flood in suspended animation in pyramid bathyscaphes starts to sound plausible.

Dave Hawkins · 06-27-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Withered View Post
If there were a world wide flood, and everyone died. Eight people had to rebuild the entire civilization of Egypt, China, and every other culture on the planet that somehow managed to carry on after the alleged flood date.

Eight people, a handful of newborns that require constant attention, and the remaining individuals are so busy gathering food, replanting, herding animals for immediate needs, and just dealing with every little thing that would come up.

The ark's passengers, and that first generation would not have the time to do anything but survive.

Add to that the list of things they would have to have accomplished in order to maintain illusion that there had been no flood, and that every culture in the world had been destroyed, and you not only strain credulity, but out right snap it in half and toss it's poor, unbelievable corpse over your shoulder like so much rubbish.

While merely striving to survive, eight people, a handful of newborns, and a crap load of wild animals somehow have to travel the entire world and:

*carefully burying the dead so as to leave no archeological trace of the near extinction of the human race

*using heiroglyphics to maintain a flawless record of what could have happened if all those egyptians had lived,

(which seems oddly dishonest of noah and the others, writing all that down, under the pretense of being innumerable egyptian clerks and priests, deliberately creating a record that would make no mention of the massive flood they had just survived, or the glory of the god that had spared them. Damned liars noah and his family.)

*And of course, repairing all of the buildings damaged by the weight of water deep enough to hide the moutains of the world, again leaving no archeological evidence of world wide structural collpases.

*replanting all of the farmland ruined by the flood.

*and laboring to clear an entire geological layer from the earth so as to leave no trace of the flood.

No amount of genetics can account for that afdave.

No handful of people could have pulled that off, and even if you claim that they had, there is not one shred of evidence to support such claims...
So why the genetics/measurement smokescreen?

Forgive me if I don't take the time in this post or in this thread to support everything I am about to say, but I will give you some quick answers all of which can be supported by creationist writings over the past 50 years, much of which is available at AIG, ICR, CMI and GRISDA.

First, 8 people did not rebuild all the civilizations. 8 people no doubt had it pretty rough for the first few years. They probably had many children to increase the labor force quickly, just as many American pioneers did in their similar rough environment.

Secondly, the pre-Flood civilizations were completely buried with 2 miles +/- of sediment. We have no reason to believe that we will EVER find any traces of them.

Thirdly, the eruption and subsequent quick regrowth at Mount Saint Helens shows how quickly catastrophically damaged areas can recover. My guess is that within 50 years of the Flood, there was a completely rebuilt (small) society. Within a couple hundred years, by the time of the Tower of Babel, there would have been enough people to have quite an advanced civilization, complete with all the amenities that were available pre-Flood.

Fourthly, there is good evidence that the great civilizations of China and Egypt DID NOT EXIST until after the date of the Tower of Babel. See the end of my Formal Flood Debate at RD.net.

Finally, there is good reason to believe that Noah carried written records on the ark--there are traditions of this that I can share at some point--there is no reason to think that no one could read these written records after Babel--why couldn't the one, original language remain unchanged in one of the people groups at Babel?

There is much evidence to support all of this and I have presented some of it in various places.

Gotta run for now. More later.

******************************************

Deadman, I DID answer your questions on Egypt at RD.net. You told me you did not want to visit my blog for the answers, so I posted them at RD.net. You never responded that I can recall.

Constant Mews · 06-27-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Quote:

Originally Posted by Withered View Post
If there were a world wide flood, and everyone died. Eight people had to rebuild the entire civilization of Egypt, China, and every other culture on the planet that somehow managed to carry on after the alleged flood date.

Eight people, a handful of newborns that require constant attention, and the remaining individuals are so busy gathering food, replanting, herding animals for immediate needs, and just dealing with every little thing that would come up.

The ark's passengers, and that first generation would not have the time to do anything but survive.

Add to that the list of things they would have to have accomplished in order to maintain illusion that there had been no flood, and that every culture in the world had been destroyed, and you not only strain credulity, but out right snap it in half and toss it's poor, unbelievable corpse over your shoulder like so much rubbish.

While merely striving to survive, eight people, a handful of newborns, and a crap load of wild animals somehow have to travel the entire world and:

*carefully burying the dead so as to leave no archeological trace of the near extinction of the human race

*using heiroglyphics to maintain a flawless record of what could have happened if all those egyptians had lived,

(which seems oddly dishonest of noah and the others, writing all that down, under the pretense of being innumerable egyptian clerks and priests, deliberately creating a record that would make no mention of the massive flood they had just survived, or the glory of the god that had spared them. Damned liars noah and his family.)

*And of course, repairing all of the buildings damaged by the weight of water deep enough to hide the moutains of the world, again leaving no archeological evidence of world wide structural collpases.

*replanting all of the farmland ruined by the flood.

*and laboring to clear an entire geological layer from the earth so as to leave no trace of the flood.

No amount of genetics can account for that afdave.

No handful of people could have pulled that off, and even if you claim that they had, there is not one shred of evidence to support such claims...
So why the genetics/measurement smokescreen?

Forgive me if I don't take the time in this post or in this thread to support everything I am about to say, but I will give you some quick answers all of which can be supported by creationist writings over the past 50 years, much of which is available at AIG, ICR, CMI and GRISDA.

In other words, you are once again simply cutting and pasting from creationist web-sites. Do you have any original information or speculation to contribute?

Quote:

First, 8 people did not rebuild all the civilizations. 8 people no doubt had it pretty rough for the first few years. They probably had many children to increase the labor force quickly, just as many American pioneers did in their similar rough environment.

And have you examined the morality and growth rates of these pioneers? You will find that the growth rates you need to support the post-flood civilizations are completely unsupportable.

Quote:

Secondly, the pre-Flood civilizations were completely buried with 2 miles +/- of sediment. We have no reason to believe that we will EVER find any traces of them.

And yet we find delicate fossils all the time in these layers. Why is that, Dave? Are stone walls, building, houses, etc. somehow less durable than delicate spider tracks, raindrops, and fossilized insects?

Quote:

Thirdly, the eruption and subsequent quick regrowth at Mount Saint Helens shows how quickly catastrophically damaged areas can recover. My guess is that within 50 years of the Flood, there was a completely rebuilt (small) society.

This is logically incoherent: are you talking about ecosystems - which do recover quickly - or societies - which do not?

Quote:

Within a couple hundred years, by the time of the Tower of Babel, there would have been enough people to have quite an advanced civilization, complete with all the amenities that were available pre-Flood.

Your naiveté is touching, but misplaced. Such growth is impossible.

Quote:

Fourthly, there is good evidence that the great civilizations of China and Egypt DID NOT EXIST until after the date of the Tower of Babel. See the end of my Formal Flood Debate at RD.net.

There is no such evidence. None. And there is excellent evidence for pre-dynastic and early Egyptian history in existence long before your 'flood'.

Quote:

Finally, there is good reason to believe that Noah carried written records on the ark--there are traditions of this that I can share at some point--there is no reason to think that no one could read these written records after Babel--why couldn't the one, original language remain unchanged in one of the people groups at Babel?

According to the Bible, Babel scrambled men's speech. Why do you continue to argue by grossly misrepresenting the Bible?

Quote:

There is much evidence to support all of this and I have presented some of it in various places.

There is no evidence for any of this, and your attempts to present your opinion - or rather, other people's opinions on this subject have been thoroughly refuted.

Pappy Jack · 06-27-2007, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike PSS

Pappy Jack,
DON'T be tempted by the dark side and succumb to the WWRRIC (worldwiderollerrulerinternationalconspiricy). Keep your sanity and integrity together and help me, a lowly engineer, continue to confront and fight for everything sane and wholesome.

Roller Rulers are E-e-e-e-e-v-v-v-v-v-i-i-i-i-i-l-l-l-l-l-l!!!!1111!!!11oneone!!!11

But, Mike, it’s like I really, really need this, man. It’s like all that gives meaning to my life. I mean, if I can’t find proof somewhere, somehow that the RRT is real, then all else is meaningless, a dark void opening before me, the prospect of everything I’ve ever believed in dissolving before me. It’s not a conspiracy, man, it’s those who deny the truth who are part of the conspiracy. They scorn papers submitted to their evil anti-RRT journals, they suppress any evidence about the existence of rollingrulers, they even plant evidence that out-and-out seems to contradict it. I mean, I want to believe you, man, I want to join you, but I can’t, I can't. I just know I’ll burn in RR hell if I do.......

Lugubert · 06-27-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Forgive me if I don't take the time in this post or in this thread to support everything I am about to say

OK, but for us who haven't followed you all over the Internet, would you be so kind as to repeat at least some of your best arguments in this thread?

Quote:

First, 8 people did not rebuild all the civilizations. 8 people no doubt had it pretty rough for the first few years. They probably had many children to increase the labor force quickly, just as many American pioneers did in their similar rough environment.

Please don't just tell me that this has been covered elsewhere, but at least give a link to to a calculation thta show the number of children per woman needed to arrive at today's population.

Quote:

Fourthly, there is good evidence that the great civilizations of China and Egypt DID NOT EXIST until after the date of the Tower of Babel. See the end of my Formal Flood Debate at RD.net.

Again, please repeat here the evidence that, seemingly, only you have found on the date of the Tower vs. those civilizations.

Quote:

Finally, there is good reason to believe that Noah carried written records on the ark--there are traditions of this that I can share at some point

Why not here and now?

Quote:

There is much evidence to support all of this and I have presented some of it in various places.

I may be repeating myself (and others), but please present your arguments here.

BTW, finding a value for pi through circular reasoning seems just logical.

Quote:

Gotta run

I see.

shirley knott · 06-27-2007, 10:06 AM

So, Dave, why can this 2+ mile layer of sediment that you claim completely buried pre-flood civilizations NOT BE FOUND??
There is no 2+mile thick layer of flood-laid sediment present world-wide.
None.
Nada.
Conclusive evidence against, the flood I should think.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

Dave Hawkins · 06-27-2007, 12:04 PM

What do you mean it can't be found?

It's there ... All over the world.

Are you not familiar with the geologic column?

Constant Mews · 06-27-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

What do you mean it can't be found?

It's there ... All over the world.

Are you not familiar with the geologic column?

We are quite familiar with the geological column. However, the 2+ mile sediment layer that you claim exists does not, in fact, exist.

Please demonstrate the existence of this global layer using actual references to existing geological columns.

ericmurphy · 06-27-2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

What do you mean it can't be found?

It's there ... All over the world.

Are you not familiar with the geologic column?

Dave, how many times have you been asked to identify a layer of sediment that was deposited by the flood? You can't do it. You've oscillated among claiming that everything below the Cambrian was flood-deposited, to all sediments were flood-deposited, to you can't tell which were flood deposited, and back again. You have no idea which sediments were deposited by the flood and which weren't, and you can't even stick to a particular interpretation. Is it now your latest position that the entire geological column--including igneous layers--were deposited by the "flood"?

One thing is for sure. YOU are not familiar with the geological column.

Constant Mews · 06-27-2007, 12:46 PM

How, for example, Dave, do you deal with layers such as the Mississippian?

Quote:

The mississippian Madison group is probably my favorite deposit in the whole world. It largely consists of dead crinoid parts. In the Hunt Larson #1 well, it is 2200 feet thick. The following quote makes the problem with the Madison quite understandable (Clark and Stearn, 1960, pp. 86-88):

The upper Mission Canyon formation (of the northwestern states and the Williston Basin) or the Livingstone formation (of Alberta) is more interesting, not only for its contribution to mountain scenery but also for its lithology and importance as an oil reservoir.

Much of the massive limestone formation is composed of sand-sized particles of calcium carbonate, fragments of crinoid plates, and shells broken by the waves. Such a sedimentary rock qualifies for the name sandstone because it is composed of particles of sand size cemented together; because the term sandstone is commonly understood to refer to a quartz-rich rock, however, these limestone sandstones are better called calcarenites. The Madison sea must have been shallow, and the waves and currents strong, to break the shells and plates of the animals when they died. The sorting of the calcite grains and the cross-bedding that is common in this formation are additional evidence of waves and currents at work. Even in Mississippian rocks, where whole crinoids are rare fossils, and as a result it is easy to underestimate the population of these animals during the Paleozoic era. Crinoidal limestones, such as the Mission Canyon-Livingstone unit, provide an estimate, even though it be of necessity a rough one, of their abundance in the clear shallow seas they loved. In the Canadian Rockies the Livingstone limestone was deposited to a thickness of 2,000 feet on the margin of the Cordilleran geosyncline, but it thins rapidly eastward to a thickness of about 1,000 feet in the Front Ranges and to about 500 feet in the Williston Basin. Even though its crinoidal content decreases eastward, it may be calculated to represent at least 10,000 cubic miles of broken crinoid plates. How many millions, billions trillions of crinoids would be required to provide such a deposit? The number staggers the imagination.

That is enough crinoids to cover the entire earth to a depth of 3 inches and yet this deposit is only a small part of a vast Mississippian crinoid bed that almost does cover the world (Morton, 1984, p. 26-27). These crinoidal limestones are called the Redwall in Arizona, the Leadville, in Colorado, the Rundle, in Canada, the Lisburne, in Alaska, the Keokuk and Burlington in the Mid-continent region of the U. S. Other crinoidal limestones are found in England, Belgium, European Russia, Egypt, Libya, central Asia, and Australia. How can the preflood world be covered in dead crinoids and still have room for people and the dinosaurs? At the top of the Madison are karsts and occasionally, caverns due to subaerial erosion, with salt deposition etc. It is also heavily burrowed. Other fossils include half millimeter long scolecodonts, spores, coral, ostracods, gastropods and plants (Altschuld and Kerr, 1983, p. 106,107).

Erosion, salt deposits, burrows, etc. could not be laid down by the flood.

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06-27-2007, 08:05 AM	#401
Calilasseia Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Liverpool, UK Posts: 1,072	Anyone else here wondering how the Egyptians managed to carry on as if nothing had happened whilst being covered by 9,000 metres of water? For that matter, what about various other ancient civilisations - the Maya, the Chinese, assorted other eastern Mediterranean civilisations that were extant at the time, plus all those Native Americans that happened to be leaving interesting clues about their lives behind them but show no signs of having suddenly vanished and been wiped off the face of the Earth in god's version of the Diet Coke & Mintoes experiment. Are we therefore to assume that, like certain spiders that left tracks in sand that were fossilised some time ago, all of these ancient peoples had scuba gear? Bathyscaphes? Perhaps we'll be told next that the Pyramids were the Egyptians' living quarters for the duration until the waters reached manageable levels and they could get back to tilling the land (or mud as the case may be). After all it's one way of explaining those thick walls - namely as a sort of static submarine pressure hull to withstand 900 atmospheres due to the humungous mass of water swilling around, but then I don't recall anyone (not even Smyth) testing them to see if they were watertight. Perhaps the sarcophagi were suspended animation chambers the Egyptians all climbed into so that they could doze for the duration and wake up when it was safe to come out again. If the immediately preceding paragraph sounds absurd, then yes it is. No one in their right mind would regard the Ancient Egyptians as being a real life version of the Sub Culture game (though give either Von Däniken or Hancock enough time, they might come round to this). Yet we're supposed to believe that somehow, 9000 metres of water ended up surrounding the Earth, with only 8 people and an assortment of critters on a wooden barge surviving it, and that when the 9000 metres of water upped its sticks and left for who knows were, those 8 people and their menagerie not only repopulated the Earth, but recreated all of those exterminated civilisations faithfully right down to the minutest detail as if nothing had happened. Next to this, the Egyptians sleeping off the flood in suspended animation in pyramid bathyscaphes starts to sound plausible.

06-27-2007, 10:06 AM	#406
shirley knott Regular Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 416	So, Dave, why can this 2+ mile layer of sediment that you claim completely buried pre-flood civilizations NOT BE FOUND?? There is no 2+mile thick layer of flood-laid sediment present world-wide. None. Nada. Conclusive evidence against, the flood I should think. no hugs for thugs, Shirley Knott

06-27-2007, 12:04 PM	#407
Dave Hawkins Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 2,375	What do you mean it can't be found? It's there ... All over the world. Are you not familiar with the geologic column?

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