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Old 12-21-2006, 10:14 AM   #61
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Aha! Mark cast his story of Jesus trial and condemnation before the Sahendrin on the trial of Zacharias, the son of Baris, by a Zealot Sanhedrin. Josephus, B.J. 4.334-344.

Very good.
Thanks. But please note that I am not saying that Mark was dependent on Josephus.

And more important in my eyes is Mark's notion that it was not what is said/claimed by Jesus that is blasphemous in the eyes of the High Priest. It is that it's the upstart, anti purity, anti-Temple, anti Zealotic Jesus who says it.

It is, after all, the claim on the part of anti-purity, anti temple, anti Jewish boundary marker, anti Zealotic followers of Jesus to be representing the will of Israel's God that led Paul to think the Jesus movement should be condemned as denigrating Israel's God and threatening the safety of Israel.

Jeffrey
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:48 AM   #62
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The kings who came to the Christ-child in the manger arrived too late; they met the ox and ass, the experts, incapable of seeing anything. And as to the unreliability of the experts when it comes to evaluating higher spirits, is it necessary to say any more after what has been said, after all the criticism applied to these critics by the lofty spirits, after all the criticism applied by Socrates and Christ? There is a moral here—but critics learn nothing. Geniuses may do what they will with the erudite critics; the latter will go on regarding themselves as their favourite devotees in precisely the same way that certain fops react to beautiful women. Nor have all the historical gaffes made by the learned and expert critics, which they themselves are obliged to gaze upon and relate, succeeded in giving them a horror of being learned and expert critics. They recount how they were made to shut their mouths as if it had nothing to do with them, and as if they hadn't got into a tight spot. Their own age gives them credit, and cannot see that they are the same people as before and that they are carrying on their old profession. So it is the same as in Christ's life: Christ still suffers most at the hands of the scholars! They still carry on their mockery of him, dressing him up with a stage sceptre and purple robe, and undressing him again. Thus we have not yet succeeded in finding any reason for speaking any better of the learned men than Christ did; we mark well their sheer nonsense, and we do not see that they have any claim to be spared. Learned criticism does not see Christ the Genius; criticism's express purpose seems to be to show that the genius is not recognized by the world. The way the Christ of the gospels is treated by the historicocritical method is the most grandiose demonstration of this.—Constantin Brunner, Our Christ, Appendix on Criticism
Ah, the crank's lament. "They don't/can't see the truth of what I say because they are blind or too invested in their views/too afraid to admit they are wrong". Never the glimmer of an admission of the possibility on the part of the crank that he is wrong or that others have used rationality in coming to the conclusion that he is wrong. Pure Gardnerism. Pure horse hockey.

And have you noted how much of a harmonizer and misreader of biblical texts Brunner is? There's no manger in the "kings" story in Matthew, nor are the "kings" (is this what Matthew calls them?) anywhere ever said in the Biblical infancy narratives to have traveled to a manger, let alone as having anywhere met an ox and a lamb (which, BTW, are not ever mentioned even in the Lukan "manger" story!) Instead, they go to a house (Matt. 2:11 and they do indeed find Jesus along with Mary.

So much for Brunner's biblical scholarship and his ability to read and report on the texts he adduces carefully and precisely and apart from extremely questionable preconceptions about what they do/have to say.

And "Christ the Genius"?? Could you please show me where this title is used of Jesus in any NT writing?

More importantly, you still haven't answered my question of why I (or anyone) should take the 13th century German Eckhart over anyone else as the true interpreter of what Jesus said. Nor have acknowledged how your claims about how the High priest was not working from the understanding of what Jesus (reputedly) meant by XRISTOS/hUIOS TOU QEOU undercuts your claims that Jesus was deemed blasphemous for mystically identifying himself with God.

And I also note that you still haven't answered my questions about the ethnic identity of the Galatians and the Thessalonians, let alone that of Theophilus.

Why is that?

JG
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Old 12-21-2006, 10:57 AM   #63
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Thanks. But please note that I am not saying that Mark was dependent on Josephus.

...

Jeffrey
Why not? You identified a number of parallels that make this at least a possibility.
  1. We have a capital trial before a hastily summoned Sanhedrin.
  2. The trial occurs in the Temple precincts and in an atmosphere, not only of crisis, but of eschatological expectation
  3. those who convene the trial believe in holy war
  4. the appearance of false witnesses and the sounding of the theme of a predetermined verdict
  5. the one brought into court is a figure who is known and identified as standing in opposition to the ideology of those who have convened his trial
  6. the accused speaks out forcefully and openly against the ideology of those who would condemn him
  7. the remarks of the accused evokes from his accusers both physical and verbal expressions of rage and indignation.
  8. an outworking of a theme that standing on the side of the accused creates risks for those who might do so
  9. the one accused is handed over to mockery and an ignominious death.


Jake Jones IV
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:05 AM   #64
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Why not?
Why?

Jeffrey
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:17 AM   #65
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Why?

Jeffrey
It seems to me that, due to the number of parallels you found in your excellent article between the account in Josephus and the trial of Jesus in Mark, that the simplest explanation is that the author of Mark had read the trial of Zacharias, the son of Baris, by a Zealot Sanhedrin in Josephus, B.J. 4.334-344.

Other explanations, such as Mark read another unknown account by someone other than Josephus, or that Mark and Josephus both heard the story of Zacharias first hand, and independantly produced these parallels, require more assumptions.

What is the latest possible date for the writing of Mark? Why? Would this preclude au_GMark from reading Josephus before writing his gospel?

But by all means, it is your observation, so I will leave the last word to you.

Thanks,
Jake
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:43 AM   #66
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It seems to me that, due to the number of parallels you found in your excellent article
Thanks!

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between the account in Josephus and the trial of Jesus in Mark, that the simplest explanation is that the author of Mark had read the trial of Zacharias, the son of Baris, by a Zealot Sanhedrin in Josephus, B.J. 4.334-344.

Other explanations, such as Mark read another unknown account by someone other than Josephus, or that Mark and Josephus both heard the story of Zacharias first hand, and independantly produced these parallels, require more assumptions.

But by all means, it is your observation, so I will leave the last word to you.
To assume that Mark read Josephus, one has also to assume that Mark was written sometime in the late 90s. Not likely in my eyes.

And since (I'm assuming) Josephus did not make up the story of the trial, that it the trail actually happened, that Josephus was not an eyewitness to the trial, and that therefore Josephus' account is a reproduction of a tradition/ report that came to him, why would the story be unavailable to Mark? And why, if the story as reported in Josephus is reasonably accurate, should the version that Mark reproduced not have the same structure as the one we find in Josephus?

And, leaving aside that fact that your notion that absent dependence, the only way to explain the parallels is Mark and Josephus having to have heard the story "first hand" to be as close as the Markan and Josphan versions are to one another and still be independent of one another is a false dichotomy (either first hand or dependence), why is it impossible or unlikely for both Mark and Josephus to each have heard it "first hand"?, especially since neither was an eye witness and they had to get the tradition from somewhere/someone else?

Jeffrey
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:51 AM   #67
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It seems to me that, due to the number of parallels you found in your excellent article between the account in Josephus and the trial of Jesus in Mark, that the simplest explanation is that the author of Mark had read the trial of Zacharias, the son of Baris, by a Zealot Sanhedrin in Josephus, B.J. 4.334-344.
It could also be that the "trial" of Jesus actually paralleled the trial of Zacharias. Trials of this sort -- i.e., trials of "traitors" before "tribunals" -- have historically and cross culturally had an amazing similar structure. Note, e.g. the structure of the trials of draft resisters during Viet Nam, or those during the "terror" in revolutionary France.

Jeffrey
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:52 AM   #68
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Ah, the crank's lament. "They don't/can't see the truth of what I say because they are blind or too invested in their views/too afraid to admit they are wrong". Never the glimmer of an admission of the possibility on the part of the crank that he is wrong or that others have used rationality in coming to the conclusion that he is wrong. Pure Gardnerism. Pure horse hockey.
And I bet you'd give Semmelweis a hard time as well. :wave:

(Oh, who's Gardner when he's at home? Anyone worth a laugh?)


spin
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Old 12-21-2006, 11:58 AM   #69
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Thanks!



To assume that Mark read Josephus, one has also to assume that Mark was written sometime in the late 90s. Not likely in my eyes.

And since (I'm assuming) Josephus did not make up the story of the trial, that it the trail actually happened, that Josephus was not an eyewitness to the trial, and that therefore Josephus' account is a reproduction of a tradition/ report that came to him, why would the story be unavailable to Mark? And why, if the story as reported in Josephus is reasonably accurate, should the version that Mark reproduced not have the same structure as the one we find in Josephus?

And, leaving aside that fact that your notion that absent dependence, the only way to explain the parallels is Mark and Josephus having to have heard the story "first hand" to be as close as the Markan and Josphan versions are to one another and still be independent of one another is a false dichotomy (either first hand or dependence), why is it impossible or unlikely for both Mark and Josephus to each have heard it "first hand"?, especially since neither was an eye witness and they had to get the tradition from somewhere/someone else?

Jeffrey
Good points. Let me summarize:

Either,
  1. Mark got the story from reading Josephus
    OR
  2. Mark and Josephus both got the story from a third report, which may be either oral or written.

You find option #2 preferable because the writing of GMark sometime in the late 90s is not likely in your eyes.

Jake
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Old 12-21-2006, 12:17 PM   #70
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And I bet you'd give Semmelweis a hard time as well. :wave:
So far as I can see, S never abandoned or condemned the scientific method and never felt, as Brunner does of those who insist on using the historical critical method for establishing what Biblical texts say/Jesus meant, that his colleagues were wrong or were idiots to insist that that method they employed was the one that not only was was proper, but was what he'd have to (and did) use to convince them that he was right.

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(Oh, who's Gardner when he's at home? Anyone worth a laugh?)
He was the author of Journey to the Earth's Interior, a book in which he purveyed the "fact" all scientists were blind to -- that the earth was hollow and held a sun 600 miles in diameter at its center and had openings by which one could travel into the hollow at both poles.

Gardner used to complain that the reason he never got (or expected to get) a "fair hearing" for his views was because of the "conservatism of [scholars] who do not care to revise their theories... especially when that revision is made necessary by discoveries ... made independently of the great universities." These scholars, "have their professional freemasonry. If you are not one of them, they do not want to listen to you."

For more on Gardner and other cranks who uttered similar (and worse) charges against those in academia who could not see "the truth", have a look at Marvin B. Gardner's (no relation) Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Jeffrey
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