aa5874

What??? You accept the claims of scholarship knowing full well that they have no evidence for their supposed "consensus"??

Where is the actual fact that the Paul/Seneca letters were composed in the 4th century??

It is NOT a good idea to accept presumptions as facts.

Well, if you reject the existing evidence that the Jesus story and cult predated Constantine then I don't know what evidence you can use to sell your dogma.

Kapyong

Gday,

Thanks for that.

BTW : I note that from 423 there are duplications in your quotes.


Kapyong

mountainman

It was a rush job.

DCHindley

I have to wonder sometimes whether the copy on Scribd is a pirate copy.

DCH

Roger Pearse

Almost certainly. But since the original is priced at a sum that only libraries can afford, it does us all a service to have it available there.

Kapyong

Gday,

Aren't there a few 'Panarions'? i.e. 'Against Hereries' by Irenaeus and a couple more IIRC ?


Kapyong

Kapyong

Gday all,

Getting back to the OP and the comment about that underneath the Moon being mortal.
I am still trying to figure out where the Air, the Moon and the heavens all fit together.
(Moderators - perhaps you could change the title to :
"Panarion etc. and The Moon, the Air and the Heavens")


Here are some comments by Philo from the time of Paul :

On Abraham
Line 223 - And likewise the air, with the exception of that small portion [of air] which is about the moon, was wholly obscured, ...

So Philo believed a small amount of Air was 'about the Moon'.


On Dreams
Line 789 Accordingly it is said that the moon is not an unadulterated consolidation of pure aether, as each of the other stars is, but is rather a combination of the aether-like and air-like essence. For the black spot which appears in it, which some call a face, is nothing else but the air mingled with it, which is by nature black, and which extends as far as heaven.

So, there is Air beneath and above the Moon and Air reaches from the Moon to heaven.


On the Creation
IX (32) ... For the air is in a manner spread above the empty space, since having mounted up it entirely fills all that open, and desolate, and empty place, which reaches down to us from the regions below the moon.

Air reaches from the Moon down to earth.


The Special Laws I
III. (13) ... But Moses was well aware that the world was created, and was like a very large city, having rulers and subjects in it; the rulers being all the bodies which are in heaven, such as planets and fixed stars; (14) and the subjects being all the natures beneath the moon, hovering in the air and adjacent to the earth.

Above the Moon are rulers, while beneath are subjects - in two places :
1. The Air (such are the prince of power of the Air)
2. the earth

Which makes Philo's view something like this (an updated view of a picture I did before) :



Which fits in nicely with the the theory that Christ descended to the Air beneath the Moon to be crucified by the Prince of Powers of the Air, and NOT as far as earth (this diagram uses Christian terminology such as '1st heaven' for Air.) :





Kapyong

mountainman

There are many treatisers by "Early Chrestian profiles" that deal with heresies and/or heretics because many of the "Early Chrestian profiles" are heresiologists. However the Panarion AFAIK is the colloquial name applied specifically to this mega treatise by Epiphanius. It's in the text. It was supposed to be a basket of remedies that the faithful orthodox of the 4th century and beyond could apply to their religious enemies, that class of people who did not revere the canonical new testament books.

mountainman

Regarding the section marked " Heaven RULERS and air some comments.

This is where the planets fit in and each of these were considered separate heavens IMHO .... there are seven:

Mercury
Venus
Sun <==== !!!
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn
Outer Stars





These (especially the sUn) were also thought of as rulers in various ways.
See Emperor Julian on the Sovereign Sun.

Astrology and astronomy were not differentiated at that epoch.


Secondly I think what you have labelled air in this segment perhaps should be labelled aether or ether the 5th element of nature, the cosmic element that fills the spaces between the planets and stars.

Finally the box containing the word god need not be called that.

The Platonists often called the final segment "The ONE" or the ALL and sometime "god"
They also used to refer to it as "The Good" --- "CHRESTOS" in the Greek.

It also corresponded to the universe.


My 2c worth K.

mountainman

What?? Have you read any well researched articles related to the forged Paul-Seneca=Paul correspondence at all? If you have not done so how the foot can you possibly be aware of what evidence they have, or have not, for their assessment that these are from the 4th century?