Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 01-06-2009, 01:30 PM

Would a comparison of Eusebius, Ambrose and Geoffrey of Monmouth help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur

mountainman · 01-06-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

St. Pothinus Bishop of Lyons, circa 177 CE.

St. Blandina, virgin and martyr, belongs to the band of martyrs of Lyons who suffered a glorious martyrdom in the reign of Marcus Aurelius (177) and concerning whose death we have a report sent by the Church of Lyons to the Churches of Asia Minor (Eusebius, Church History V.2). According to this report, "they endured nobly the injuries heaped upon them by the populace". Probably Pothinus and his followers were friends of the Phrygian Montanists, but St. Irenaeus, Father of the Church, hijacked their martyrdom, while condemning their beliefs.

Dear Huon,

I am aware that Eusebius is the source for a myriad of martyrs but I dont seem to be able to find him writing a text concerning the martyrs Cosmas and Damian. Do you know who wote the story of Cosmas and Damian? Their bodies were recovered from the world for posterity c.389 CE by a key christian at that time. He could not have recognised the pair of saints if there was not at that time a story about them in circulation. Can you assist here?

Best wishes,

Pete

mountainman · 01-06-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Would a comparison of Eusebius, Ambrose and Geoffrey of Monmouth help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur

Dear Clivedurdle,

It appears that there is no one canonical version of the "King Arthur" story, and "Geoffrey's version of events often serves as the starting point for later stories." From that page it may be seen that there is a claim that the stories about King Arthur actually did exist independent and before Geoffrey. The problem with Eusebius is that we do not appear to have anything which is external and independent of Eusebius. Ambrose - after the event of Nicaea - was simply an authoritarian follower who perhaps tried to do his best with what he had to work with: the NT canon was already established as the one and only true canon.

Someone, perhaps Eusebius, wrote an account of the story of the twin pair of physicians Cosmas and Damian such that this account was taken at that time - fourth century - to be a history. Toto has not yet told me why he is so sure that thre is no history for Cosmas and Damian, and that they are a folklore. But granted that the story of Cosmas and Damian is folklore, in order for Ambrose to have located their bodies, etc, etc, etc c.389 CE he must have had a history and not a "folklore" to work with as a map. If "Cosmas and Damian" are today perceived as "folklore", what scholarship is behind this assessment? For what reasons are these two now seen comfortably as "folklore"? Does anyone know?

And finally, to return to this statement of Toto's:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

If you could show explicitly that the stories about Jesus were part of the same pattern, you would convince the world that the historical Jesus could not be recovered. But there is no general consensus on this question.

Before a consensus is the data. And I am not aware that we have the data. What data is there on the origination of the "folklore" of Cosmas and Damien who were later in the fourth century to have basilicas erected in their names? Who mentions Cosmas and Damian before Ambrose (working as an Helena/archaeologist) finds their bodies (c.389 CE)?

Best wishes,

Pete

mountainman · 01-08-2009, 04:55 PM

SUMMARY

The fourth century Christian Ambrose appears to have expressed wishes to be buried alongside two historical (or otherwise) figures "Cosmas and Damian" which -- for reasons that I have yet to establish -- are today regarded as figures of folklore. Would you want to be buried alongside Harry Potter? I dont expect you would, unless you believed Harry Potter was a real person, and the only way you would ever do that, is to have read the story of Harry Potter, or have had it read to you as a child by an authority figure. This would be a minimal requirement: exposure to a story. Belief in the story requires additional separate considerations in addition to this minimal requirement - that the story was extant to Ambrose c.389 CE.

So the question becomes who first wrote the folklore of "Cosmas and Damian" and passed it off as history in the fourth century? Searches of citations databases for references to the incidents of "Cosmas and Damian" in the patristic literature, would be highly regarded. Other than that, this case looks like one of those proverbial mysteries - much like the very similar -- one might say parallel case -- of who first wrote the folklore of "Jesus and the Christian Apostles" and passed it off as history. Considering this parallel, its a wonder that other Jesus Myth propronents have not examined the merits of pursuing the case of the folklore of these two bogus saints into the age before which they did not exist.

What parallels (if any) do others see between the "Jesus Myth" and the "Cosmas and Damian Myth"?

Best wishes,

Pete

Clivedurdle · 01-09-2009, 02:31 AM

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=648

Quote:

n the year 1190, the monks of Glastonbury Abbey in England announced an incredible discovery. According to historical record, the monks began to experience dreams and visions about King Arthur around that time, which prompted them to consult with King Henry II (AD 1133-1189). Henry informed them of a long-kept secret of the royal family: Arthur’s remains were buried in the churchyard of St. Dunstan in Glastonbury. A search was soon commissioned. Upon excavating the indicated area, the searchers unearthed a massive oak trunk, buried sixteen feet deep just as Henry had described. Inside was a human skeleton which confirmed that they had discovered something special. It was absolutely gigantic. It appeared to be much taller than an average man, and the space between the eye sockets was as wide as the palm of a man’s hand. Apparently, this famous king was truly larger than life.

This skeleton was not alone in its coffin. Alongside it was a second, lying next to a plait of blonde hair. The identities of the two remains were described on an archaic lead cross which was found nearby, inscribed with the Latin message "Hic jacet sepultus inclitus rex Arthurus in insula Avalonia," meaning "Here lies interred the famous King Arthur on the Isle of Avalon."

read to the end of the link.....

Clivedurdle · 01-09-2009, 02:36 AM

There would seem to be further categories than history and folklore, propaganda, advertising, marketting for example.

mountainman · 01-09-2009, 06:22 PM

Advertising and marketing the historical (or otherwise) Jesus
and the historical (or otherwise) Cosmas and Damian
in late antiquity for the purposes of posterity.

Here is a scene depicting Jesus and Cosmas and Damian together with Peter and others, from here, and is elsewhere described as:

Quote:

The paleochristian Church of Saint Cosmas and Damian, near theRoman Forum, houses one of the most ancient apse mosaics, in Roman-Byzantine style. The 6th and 7th-century work depicts avery Roman-looking Jesus in his second descent on Earth, surrounded by Saint Peter, Saint Paul, identical twins, doctors and martyrsCosmas and Damian, Theodore, and Pope Felix IV holding a miniature church.

Quote:

After Christianity is officially adopted as the religion of the Roman Empire, we begin to see Jesus represented as if he were an Emperor and his associates appear as members of his court. Here is a picture of the apse in the Church of Saints Cosmas and Damian (la Chiesa dei Santi Cosma e Damiano).

gentleexit · 01-09-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Here is a scene depicting Jesus and Cosmas and Damian together with Peter and others, ...

Very cool. Gotta love these apses - each worth a thousand words.

mountainman · 01-10-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gentleexit

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Here is a scene depicting Jesus and Cosmas and Damian together with Peter and others, ...

Very cool. Gotta love these apses - each worth a thousand words.

Dear gentleexit,

The pattern keeps repeating as the centuries roll away ....

Quote:

image from the Church of San Paolo. Compare these images with the earlier images. Also, notice that the style of the artwork itself has changed from the more naturalistic representations of classical Rome. The figures are now placed on a flat, idealized space. They face forward with wide eyes. This mode of representation is influenced by Neo-Platonism, and it attempts to draw the viewer's attention away from outer, physical appearances toward an inner, spiritual reality.

The historicity exercise for anyone in this forum who (a) believes in some sort of an historical jesus and, (b) believes in some form of non-historical hagiographical and/or folklorish "Cosmas and Damian" is to explain the sequence of events by which the HJ is in the same fabulously expensive ancient artwork (like the movies of antiquity) with "non-historical figures". Perhaps it was just an expensive mistake?

We will not really know until someone can present data concerning who first tendered to the planet the "folklore" of Cosmas and Damian. Have the original stories been pulled from circulation? Can anyone find any reference whatsoever to mention of Cosmas and Damian in the literature tradition before the year of c.389 CE, when Ambrose claims to have recovered the bodies of these two figures of non-historical folklore? (Or was this claim retrojected from the fifth century?)

Best wishes,

Pete

mountainman · 01-10-2009, 05:10 PM

CLIFF CASTLES AND CAVE DWELLINGS OF EUROPE ... S. BARING-GOULD (1911).

This author makes the claim that the worship of deities which originally took place at caves and grottos, moved from there to ancient shrines and temples, and then again into christian basilicas.

Quote:

The Emperor Constantine consecrated to the archangel Michael two churches near Byzantium, one was at Anaplous, on the Bosphorus, the other on the opposite shore at Brochoi. This second church replaced a temple that had, according to tradition, been founded by the Argonauts, and was called the Sosthenion. According to John Malala, Constantine slept in the temple and asked that he might be instructed in dream to whom the church which was to replace it should be dedicated. Great numbers from Byzantium and the country round had resort to these churches to seek the guidance of the archangel in their difficulties and a cure when sick.

Sozomen, the ecclesiastical historian, relates an instance of a cure effected in one of the churches of S. Michael. Aquilinus, a celebrated lawyer, was ill with jaundice. "Being half dead, he ordered his servants to carry him to the church, in hopes of being cured there or dying there. When in it, God appeared to him in the night and bade him drink a mixture of honey, wine and pepper. He was cured, although the doctors thought the potion too hot for a malady of the bile. I heard also that Probian, physician of the Court, was also cured at the Michaelon by an extraordinary vision, of pains he endured in his feet." "Not being able to record all the miracles in this church, I have selected only these two out of many."[6]

That which took place at the Michaelons on the Bosphorus occurred elsewhere, in churches dedicated to SS. Cosmas and Damian. At Ægae in Cilicia was a shrine of Æsculapius, and incubation was practised in his temple. It afterwards became a church of Cosmas and Damian, and the same practices continued after the rededication. The chain of superstitious practices continued after the change in religion without any alteration.

...[...]...

We have accordingly a series of customs
beginning in caves dedicated to heathen deities,
transferred to their temples,
then to churches under the invocation of Christian saints and of angels.[/b]

Best wishes,

Pete

01-08-2009, 04:55 PM	#24
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	cosmas and damian in the patristic literature SUMMARY The fourth century Christian Ambrose appears to have expressed wishes to be buried alongside two historical (or otherwise) figures "Cosmas and Damian" which -- for reasons that I have yet to establish -- are today regarded as figures of folklore. Would you want to be buried alongside Harry Potter? I dont expect you would, unless you believed Harry Potter was a real person, and the only way you would ever do that, is to have read the story of Harry Potter, or have had it read to you as a child by an authority figure. This would be a minimal requirement: exposure to a story. Belief in the story requires additional separate considerations in addition to this minimal requirement - that the story was extant to Ambrose c.389 CE. So the question becomes who first wrote the folklore of "Cosmas and Damian" and passed it off as history in the fourth century? Searches of citations databases for references to the incidents of "Cosmas and Damian" in the patristic literature, would be highly regarded. Other than that, this case looks like one of those proverbial mysteries - much like the very similar -- one might say parallel case -- of who first wrote the folklore of "Jesus and the Christian Apostles" and passed it off as history. Considering this parallel, its a wonder that other Jesus Myth propronents have not examined the merits of pursuing the case of the folklore of these two bogus saints into the age before which they did not exist. What parallels (if any) do others see between the "Jesus Myth" and the "Cosmas and Damian Myth"? Best wishes, Pete

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01-06-2009, 01:30 PM	#21
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Would a comparison of Eusebius, Ambrose and Geoffrey of Monmouth help? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur

01-09-2009, 02:36 AM	#26
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	There would seem to be further categories than history and folklore, propaganda, advertising, marketting for example.

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