Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-07-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimvall

The verses (in American Standard Version) go:

14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;

15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Did he really mean that the Jew literally killed Jesus? I hate to sound like an apologist trying to downplay anti-Jewishness; but it doesn't sound like that to me. I mean, in the same verse, he also says that the Jews killed the prophets - and although I am not that familiar with the fate of all the various prophets - I'm still pretty sure that they weren't killed by Jews.

Paul does not indicate a great awareness of the Jewish scriptures, so it's possible he thought the Jews had killed all their prophets - maybe that was a common slur at the time?

It is completely erroneous to claim the Pauline writers were not familiar with Jewish Scriptures when they show acute awareness of the Laws of Moses, used many passages found in Hebrew Scripture, mentioned many characters found in Hebrew Scripture like Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, David, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Isaiah, and others.

It is precisely because of their knowledge of Hebrew Scripture why they preached the supposed revealed gospel of uncircumcision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

But I think a more consistent view, is that Paul is using the word 'kill' metaphorically to mean that the Jews failed to understand the "true meaning" of their own prophets, and that is the sense in which they killed their own messiah.

The Pauline writers claimed Jesus shed his blood. And in 1 Corinthians it is claimed Jesus was betrayed in the night, supped with his disciples and was crucified. The Pauline writers believed or intended the readers to believe Jesus the GOD/MAN did die and resurrected for the salvation of mankind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

If I'm right, then Paul may not view the crucifixion as a real historical event the way most Christians do today, but is instead using mystical/metaphorical language.

If you are wrong, then Paul may have viewed or wanted the readers to view the crucifixion as an historical event. The NT is the Canon that propagate the physical crucifixion and death of the God/man of which the Pauline Epistles are a part.

The NT and Church writings all support the notion that Jesus the God/man was physically killed and was raised from the dead by the God of the Jews.

spamandham · 12-07-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

It may be a stretch but maybe the prophets being killed in the story of Elijah and Jezebel could be seen as evidence of them killing their own prophets for that passage and I think Saul is credited with doing something similar in Josephus’ History, IIRC.

...Saul is also kind of an SOB in the OT. Is it just coincidence that Saul => Paul and both the OT Saul and the NT Saul are persecutors?

Petergdi · 12-07-2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

It may be a stretch but maybe the prophets being killed in the story of Elijah and Jezebel could be seen as evidence of them killing their own prophets for that passage and I think Saul is credited with doing something similar in Josephus’ History, IIRC.

...Saul is also kind of an SOB in the OT. Is it just coincidence that Saul => Paul and both the OT Saul and the NT Saul are persecutors?

King Saul is a visionary (hence "is Saul also among the prophets") who suffers from the delusion that David poses a threat to him, when in fact (or at least in the story) David will not raise his hand against YHWH's anointed.

Peter.

ph2ter · 12-08-2009, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimvall

The verses (in American Standard Version) go:

14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;

15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Did he really mean that the Jew literally killed Jesus? I hate to sound like an apologist trying to downplay anti-Jewishness; but it doesn't sound like that to me. I mean, in the same verse, he also says that the Jews killed the prophets - and although I am not that familiar with the fate of all the various prophets - I'm still pretty sure that they weren't killed by Jews.

Could "kill" simply mean "reject"? It would make more sense, at least to me.

(I know, some people says this is an interpolation and not genuine Pauline and if you think that is the case, then just replace "Paul" with "the author").

Please enlighten me on the various interpretations of these verses and the probability of mine.

It says what it says, that the Jews killed the Lord Jesus.

But 1 Thessalonians 2:16: "The wrath of God has come upon them at last" is very probably a reference to the destruction of the Temple. So, the paragraph could not be written by Paul.
The paragraph fits inside the larger tendency of historicization which started to grow after the first generation of apostles have died.

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