kimvall

The verses (in American Standard Version) go:

14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;

15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Did he really mean that the Jew literally killed Jesus? I hate to sound like an apologist trying to downplay anti-Jewishness; but it doesn't sound like that to me. I mean, in the same verse, he also says that the Jews killed the prophets - and although I am not that familiar with the fate of all the various prophets - I'm still pretty sure that they weren't killed by Jews.

Could "kill" simply mean "reject"? It would make more sense, at least to me.

(I know, some people says this is an interpolation and not genuine Pauline and if you think that is the case, then just replace "Paul" with "the author").

Please enlighten me on the various interpretations of these verses and the probability of mine.

aa5874

The Pauline JESUS was a God/man [not a God/Phantom] who was crucified, died and was raised from the dead.

All the books of the Canon are consistent with a GOD/MAN JESUS.

And it would appear that the Greek word used for "killed" in 1Thessalonians 2.15 does not mean "rejected".

kimvall

I don't follow you. Are you proposing the Christ Myth Theory a la Earl Doherty, that Jesus was never a real person? And if so, then "killed" could not be taken literally (how can you literally kill something that only exists in a mythical realm)?

Or perhaps I've misunderstood you?

aa5874

I am dealing specifically with the OP.

The NT presented a GOD/MAN called Jesus Christ the offspring of the Holy Ghost born of a virgin Mary who was crucified, died, resurrected and ascended to heaven.

The Pauline writings are fundamentally about the very same Jesus Christ and referred to the entity hundreds of times.

The Church writer using the name Tertullian claimed Jesus MUST have had flesh to be born.

This is Tertullian "On the Flesh of Christ"

The NT and Church writings are about a GOD/MAN, a MYTHICAL ENTITY which in reality could have only been believed to be killed.

It would appear IN Antiquity some Jesus believers thought Jesus was GOD and Man while other believed he was GOD and Phantom.

kimvall

So I was wrong that you advocate the Christ Myth Theory? Ok, well, what's your take on the killing of Jesus? If the Jews killed Jesus in literally, does it mean that they also literally had the prophets killed (executed)?

Still not sure I understand you. Weird.

Toto

Killed has to be read literally.

"Killed Their Own Prophets": New Testament Libel of the Jews by Stephen Van Eck Van Eck notes that there were folk traditions that both Isaiah and Jeremiah were killed, and these are referred to in Hebrews.

However

2 Chronicles 36:16 "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy".

Also the Qur'anic answer mentions 2 Chron 24:20-1 (it seems Zechariah was not actually a prophet.)

This link also reports the attempt to have Jeremiah killed, which was not ultimately successful.

aa5874

Let me try again. The Jesus of the NT and the Church writings were about a MYTHICAL GOD/MAN who was believed to have been killed or was intended to be believed to have been killed.

1. Jesus was a GOD/MAN.

2. Jesus was a MYTHICAL entity.

3. Jesus was BELIEVED to have been killed.

Jesus the GOD/MAN was a 1st century fiction character whose innocent death appears to have caused his FATHER ,the God of the Jews, to allow the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple, based on the Synoptics.

spamandham

Paul does not indicate a great awareness of the Jewish scriptures, so it's possible he thought the Jews had killed all their prophets - maybe that was a common slur at the time?

But I think a more consistent view, is that Paul is using the word 'kill' metaphorically to mean that the Jews failed to understand the "true meaning" of their own prophets, and that is the sense in which they killed their own messiah.

If I'm right, then Paul may not view the crucifixion as a real historical event the way most Christians do today, but is instead using mystical/metaphorical language.

Solo

I doubt very much that the author of the verses meant "rejected" and not "killed". I do not believe it was Paul who wrote those two verses, as being one of the prosecutors of the early church, he would have been one of those driving the brothers out. In tone, the passage looks alien to Paul's thinking; he does not atttack "Jews" in the generalized manner of 1 Th 2:14-16. The writer ascribes the death of Jesus and other prophets to ingrained malice of the Jews - something very much alien to Paul and out of tune with, say 1 Cr 2:8 (none of the rulers of this world understood [God's wisdom]: for had they had they would not have creucified the Lord of glory), or Rom 8:4 (in order that the just requirement of the law (the crucifixion) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.).

The passage is reminiscent to the lament of Jesus over Jerusalem in Matthew 23:

Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,
that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you!....

Note that as in Matthew, the fall of the temple, is seen by the writer of the 1 Th 2 insert as God's punishment.

BTW, Matthew's Jesus was wrong about the identity of Zechariah stoned in the temple acc to 2 Chronicles 24:20-24. The individual was not the prophet Zechariah of the OT book but Zechariah the son Jehoiada. The Matthean lament probably dates from the time of the post-Jamesian exile and references in addition to the wrong Zech, John the Baptist, Jesus and James the Just, as prophets and those sent to you.....

Jiri

Elijah

It may be a stretch but maybe the prophets being killed in the story of Elijah and Jezebel could be seen as evidence of them killing their own prophets for that passage and I think Saul is credited with doing something similar in Josephus’ History, IIRC.