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Sheshbazzar · 04-15-2012, 08:54 AM

The question of Exodus 4:14 הלא אהרן אחיך >'Is not Aaron the Levite your brother?' does not demand that אחיך 'achika' be interpreted or translated as 'your brother' in the immediate family relationship sense.
That is only a tradition, the same term is in hundreds of instances used to designate a social relationship as fellow members, 'kinsmen', brethern of the same people or tribe.

It is most likely that Aaron was not originally thought of, or represented by the texts writer(s) as being Moses' actual brother, but only as a familiar associate and kinsman among his people.
Tradition eventually placing them into a much more intimate familial relationship than what is actually supported by the texts.

Dicky, Welcome to the Forum. This is dealing with what intentions the texts writers were intending to convey, not with the matter of the historical accuracy of what they wrote.

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-15-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dicky Diamond

Is now a bad time to bring up the fact that Moses isn't a real figure in history and that Jewish people were never in Egypt?

The Egyptians were fantastic record keepers and they have none of slavery. In fact the Egyptian societal structure was ahead of it's time allowing workers days off and pay periods. There are no records of bringing any slaves let alone in any part of Ancient Egypt. There is also no other evidence either that Jewish people ever set foot in Egypt.

You have to exist first before you can have siblings.

We know that. We're only talking the story as a story, and speculating on how it was constructed. That we don't consider these stories to be historical kind of goes without saying around here. We are wondering why the creators of the myth introduced a key character in such an abrupt and awkward way.

Personally, I think Exodus is a mashup of local tribal "Aaron" tradition originating with Mountain worshiping cults in the Trans-Jordan with some scrambled version of Ahmose and the Hyksos. I think the grafting is awkward because they are separate myths which originally had nothing to do with each other.

outhouse · 04-15-2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dicky Diamond

Is now a bad time to bring up the fact that Moses isn't a real figure in history and that Jewish people were never in Egypt?

The Egyptians were fantastic record keepers and they have none of slavery. In fact the Egyptian societal structure was ahead of it's time allowing workers days off and pay periods. There are no records of bringing any slaves let alone in any part of Ancient Egypt. There is also no other evidence either that Jewish people ever set foot in Egypt.

You have to exist first before you can have siblings.

We know that. We're only talking the story as a story, and speculating on how it was constructed. That we don't consider these stories to be historical kind of goes without saying around here. We are wondering why the creators of the myth introduced a key character in such an abrupt and awkward way.

Personally, I think Exodus is a mashup of local tribal "Aaron" tradition originating with Mountain worshiping cults in the Trans-Jordan with some scrambled version of Ahmose and the Hyksos. I think the grafting is awkward because they are separate myths which originally had nothing to do with each other.

No "real" ties at all for the Hyksos hypothesis, and even Ahmose is a long shot. I'd go with the tribal leader of the Shasu and thats to much of a stretch, only Yahweh ties them in and thats way to weak a connection.

Sheshbazzar · 04-15-2012, 11:20 AM

I'll give you a few more words from Moses, to help put this 'brother' of Moses in context.

Quote:

"Thou shalt not hate thy brother (אחיך) in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him." (Lev 19:17)

"For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother (אחיך), to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land." (Deut 15:11)

"Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom YHWH thy Elohim shall choose: one from among thy brethren (אחיך) shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother. (אחיך), (Deut 17:15)

"Thou shalt not see thy brother's (אחיך) ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother. (אחיך)

And if thy brother (אחיך) be not nigh unto thee, -or if thou know him not-, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother (אחיך) seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.

In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, (אחיך) which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.

Thou shalt not see thy brother's (אחיך) ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again. (Deut 22:1-4)

I am somewhat pressed for time at the moment but can provide many more examples where the sense of אחיך can only be inclusive of an entire people.
The sense of 'thy brother' is inclusive of all of the Hebrew people and children of Israel, and is to be so taken unless the context specifically indicates a direct and immediate family relationship. Which it does not with respect to that relationship between Moses and Aaron.

stephan huller · 04-15-2012, 12:13 PM

Shesh

For Clement Jesus is the 'brother' of Pentateuch references. What I can't figure out is when the sun and moon are conjoined. All the scholarly evidence I can find says it is on the first when the moon is between the earth and sun, but Benny keeps telling me it is from the 8th to the 14th. I can't figure that one out. I need to find someone who knows something about moon phases.

I was led to believe that 'conjoining' is on the first but how the hell is it from the 8th to the 14th? I don't get it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pNx...nction&f=false

Indeed while the Biblical narrative of the 'conjunction' of Aaron and Moses is told from the perspective of the moon (= Aaron).

The LORD said to Aaron, “Go into the wilderness to meet Moses.” So he met Moses at the mountain of God and kissed him. 28 Then Moses told Aaron everything the LORD had sent him to say, and also about all the signs he had commanded him to perform.

Marqe makes the same emphasis - i.e. it is the moon coming to the sun not the other way around. So I don't get how conjoining could be on the 8th to the 14th. It would be the 22nd to the 29th or 30th and then the 1st would be the equivalent of the Simmut today.

stephan huller · 04-15-2012, 01:09 PM

Benny is now admitting he isn't sure he is right about that statement. He's going to go ask the high priest and get back to me.

stephan huller · 04-15-2012, 02:29 PM

the Aramaic term tsimmut is related to the Hebrew root tsemed which essentially means 'pair.' It also means yoke because oxen were paired. The saying my yoke is chrestos is interesting.

stephan huller · 04-15-2012, 02:31 PM

Tsemed means to bind and is the root, and tsamad derives from tsamad and means to brace animals harnessed together and providing a specific service through the resultant unity. The noun tsemed is derived from that not the other way around.

stephan huller · 04-15-2012, 03:12 PM

Philo of Alexandria in The Special Laws, II, XI,41 (tr. by F.H. Colson, Harvard University Press, Loeb Classical Library, Cambridge, MA, 1937) tells us: “The third [feast] is the new moon which follows the conjunction of the moon with the sun”. And in II, XXVI, 140: “This is the New Moon, or beginning of the lunar month, namely the period between one conjunction and the next, the length of which has been accurately calculated in the astronomical schools”. It should be noted that the popular Hendrickson Publishers edition (1993) of C.D. Jonge’s 1854 translation does not have the same information that the Colson translation gives. The indications are that the conjunctions were determinative in deciding the first of the month.

stephan huller · 04-15-2012, 03:17 PM

The same Hebrew word means 'new moon' or 'month' so Deuteronomy 16:1 - “Keep (shamowr) the new moon (chodesh) of Abib and celebrate the Passover…”

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04-15-2012, 08:54 AM	#21
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The question of Exodus 4:14 הלא אהרן אחיך >'Is not Aaron the Levite your brother?' does not demand that אחיך 'achika' be interpreted or translated as 'your brother' in the immediate family relationship sense. That is only a tradition, the same term is in hundreds of instances used to designate a social relationship as fellow members, 'kinsmen', brethern of the same people or tribe. It is most likely that Aaron was not originally thought of, or represented by the texts writer(s) as being Moses' actual brother, but only as a familiar associate and kinsman among his people. Tradition eventually placing them into a much more intimate familial relationship than what is actually supported by the texts. Dicky, Welcome to the Forum. This is dealing with what intentions the texts writers were intending to convey, not with the matter of the historical accuracy of what they wrote.

04-15-2012, 12:13 PM	#25
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Shesh For Clement Jesus is the 'brother' of Pentateuch references. What I can't figure out is when the sun and moon are conjoined. All the scholarly evidence I can find says it is on the first when the moon is between the earth and sun, but Benny keeps telling me it is from the 8th to the 14th. I can't figure that one out. I need to find someone who knows something about moon phases. I was led to believe that 'conjoining' is on the first but how the hell is it from the 8th to the 14th? I don't get it. http://books.google.com/books?id=pNx...nction&f=false Indeed while the Biblical narrative of the 'conjunction' of Aaron and Moses is told from the perspective of the moon (= Aaron). The LORD said to Aaron, “Go into the wilderness to meet Moses.” So he met Moses at the mountain of God and kissed him. 28 Then Moses told Aaron everything the LORD had sent him to say, and also about all the signs he had commanded him to perform. Marqe makes the same emphasis - i.e. it is the moon coming to the sun not the other way around. So I don't get how conjoining could be on the 8th to the 14th. It would be the 22nd to the 29th or 30th and then the 1st would be the equivalent of the Simmut today.

04-15-2012, 01:09 PM	#26
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Benny is now admitting he isn't sure he is right about that statement. He's going to go ask the high priest and get back to me.

04-15-2012, 02:29 PM	#27
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	the Aramaic term tsimmut is related to the Hebrew root tsemed which essentially means 'pair.' It also means yoke because oxen were paired. The saying my yoke is chrestos is interesting.

04-15-2012, 02:31 PM	#28
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Tsemed means to bind and is the root, and tsamad derives from tsamad and means to brace animals harnessed together and providing a specific service through the resultant unity. The noun tsemed is derived from that not the other way around.

04-15-2012, 03:12 PM	#29
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Philo of Alexandria in The Special Laws, II, XI,41 (tr. by F.H. Colson, Harvard University Press, Loeb Classical Library, Cambridge, MA, 1937) tells us: “The third [feast] is the new moon which follows the conjunction of the moon with the sun”. And in II, XXVI, 140: “This is the New Moon, or beginning of the lunar month, namely the period between one conjunction and the next, the length of which has been accurately calculated in the astronomical schools”. It should be noted that the popular Hendrickson Publishers edition (1993) of C.D. Jonge’s 1854 translation does not have the same information that the Colson translation gives. The indications are that the conjunctions were determinative in deciding the first of the month.

04-15-2012, 03:17 PM	#30
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The same Hebrew word means 'new moon' or 'month' so Deuteronomy 16:1 - “Keep (shamowr) the new moon (chodesh) of Abib and celebrate the Passover…”

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