Vorkosigan

19: When I broke the five loaves for the five
thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces
did you take up?" They said to him, "Twelve."
20: "And the seven for the four thousand, how many
baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?"
And they said to him, "Seven."
21: And he said to them, "Do you not yet
understand?"

There were FIVE loaves yielding TWELVE baskets and then SEVEN. What is the allegory Jesus is suggesting with these numbers?

spin

Ah, the son of the squaw on the hippopotamus hide is equal to the sons of the squaws on the other two hides?


pithagoras

rostau

The 4000 were hungrier than the 5000.

spin

Doh! The baskets were much smaller for the 4000...

5000 - 5 loaves - 12 baskets
4000 - 7 loaves - 7 baskets

I don't think the numbers in themselves are important, Vork. The Lord giveth. Don't use the leaven of the Pharisees and stick to laws rather than having faith. Look what faith can do! We had no bread, but when you believe you can have a full stomach anyway.


spin

Jack the Bodiless

It's a pity WILLOWTREE isn't around.

I could maybe play around with those numbers, and pi, and the diameter of the Earth, and the Great Pyramid: but I can't be bothered.

Rick Sumner

I'm not entirely persuaded that this was the only point, or that the numbers are without significance. However, I do think it's about the best approach we can have for now, perhaps with the qualifier that while it could have another significance, we simply don't know anything beyond this. Seven is generally used to indicate good, twelve of course for the twelve tribes, and so on, but it seems to me that we run a huge risk of eisegeting the text if we try and solve it--much like the kerygma interpolated at the end of John.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Chili

Let me give it a shot here Rick and see what you think.

The question was: The twelve are his apostles and the 5 thousand are the unanswered questions held by these 'helpers' whom at one time were his shepherds when the 5 thousand were still the accumilated richess of Joseph the enterprising Jew. These shepherds were herding those sheep at night to say that Joseph was earnestly looking for meaning in his life and in total abondonment, which is signified by shepherds herding sheep at night, Christ was born unto him. Now here, while in the domein of Herod and the Pharisees and therefore subject to their influence, Jesus identifies the cause of his loss of identity in feeding the 5000 and when he feeds the 4000 he brings them towards understanding and that is how he ties the 7 loaves into the house of the Lord . . . which is inside the domein of Herod and the Pharisees and thus against his prior stream of consciousness.

Herod was the ruler of his subconscious mind (for now) and Pilate of his conscious mind and the emnity between them is the consequence of the "emnity between her offspring and yours" as was predicted in Gen.3:15 (the curse on the serpent) . . . which puts the subconscious mind at odds with the conscious mind. As we see later, Herod and Pilate become friends to say that peace of mind is soon to be restored (Luke 23:12).

There is a significance in the numbers with 4 being the unanswered question that have been accumilated in the world (4 is world) and 5 indicates that they relate to faith (5 is failing faith). The number 7 means that they have been tied down in understanding (epiphany=7).

Note that these 12 become 24 in Rev.someplace where they become the elders that worship God. The 24 are 12 from "the old" as shepherd and 12 from "the new" as apostle because you can't add to the richess of God without first having accumilated any. In other words, the world is good and is the place where base metal must be found before we can purify it into gold.

Rick Sumner

How about this: Five for the five books of Moses, twelve for the twelve tribes, seven for the good that came of this. All (now including the Gentiles--Jesus broke and blessed bread without the priest, meaning the priest and subsequently the old covenant was now superfluous) were fed from five books, but there was still a basket left for each tribe.

Why is your reading more likely? And how do we know that both of us aren't guilty of purest eisegesis?

Other than a bit of eucharistic symbolism (and even that, I think, primarily in Matt, who gets rid of Mark's fish), and what has already been outlined by Spin, I don't think we can safely say that anyone attempting to solve the riddle isn't eisegeting.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

funinspace

I think the answer is forty-two. :Cheeky: Seriously though the below sounds about right:

Wily Coyote

Jesus' point was that the uneaten portions of food exceeded what had ostensibly been available before they'd been broken and shared with the thousands. The point is that the reward for generosity will exceed what one has been generous with. Jesus and his disciples were generous with what they had, their reward was greater than what they'd given out, and everyone had a full stomach besides.

You can seek out a mystical, deep philosophical meaning in the numbers themselves, 5, 7, and 12 being famously mystical "good luck" numbers, but for me the numbers themselves are only significant in terms of the fact they're greater than the original amounts.