Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 10:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I forgot the other assumption one needs to make to determine the Tyre prophecy failed. The Tyre prophecy was mainly against the walls and streets of the city of Tyre, since Tyre exists today, prophecy failed.

Wrong. That is not an assumption required to prove its failure.

The skeptic emphasis on walls and streets is to respond to fundies like yourself who think that there is some difference between walls, streets, island and mainland.

So what is your understanding why Zekey would say such a terrible thing that Tyre would be destroyed? It appears that Tyre and the nation of Israel were "allies" in the past( Tyre supplied materials to help King Solomon build the temple). Any thoughts?

Here is some interesting information that Tyre was originally located on the mainlaind and then King Hiram literally built the Island of Tyre. King Hiram of Tyre

Minimalist · 02-12-2008, 10:08 AM

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I guess your not buying that Alexander the Great fits the definition of one of the many nations which would later destroy Tyre, right?

Alex's army, in 332, was primarily Greek. He did not begin incorporating Persian contingents until after he had conquered the Persian empire which is traditionally ascribed to the death of Darius some time after the Battle of Gaugamela which took place in 331.

Thus, it's a real stretch to assert "many nations" following Alex in 332 BC at Tyre. This was not the Le Grand Armee of Napoleon.

Sheshonq · 02-12-2008, 10:27 AM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Wrong. That is not an assumption required to prove its failure.

The skeptic emphasis on walls and streets is to respond to fundies like yourself who think that there is some difference between walls, streets, island and mainland.

So what is your understanding why Zekey would say such a terrible thing that Tyre would be destroyed?

Israel hated Tyre because Tyre was rich, prosperous, and powerful. Israel was a third-world backwater that was constantly being invaded, crushed, and oppressed. Reason enough.

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It appears that Tyre and the nation of Israel were "allies" in the past( Tyre supplied materials to help King Solomon build the temple). Any thoughts?

During the very brief period when Israel was a regional power, it was finally big enough to be worthy of Tyre's attention. But that didn't last; Israel fell and was split into Israel/Judah, got smashed by Assyria, invaded by Egypt, and was otherwise turned into a doormat.

You seem to think that alliances involve some kind of honorable covenant or pact. How naive. Why did Tyre ignore Israel during Ezekiel's time, and why did the Jews hate Tyre? Because the regional politics change based upon the self-interest of the parties at hand. Oldest story in the world.

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Here is some interesting information that Tyre was originally located on the mainlaind and then King Hiram literally built the Island of Tyre. King Hiram of Tyre

As usual, you misunderstand your own sources. Hiram did not build the island of Tyre. He built the city on the island, and connected the main island to the island of Melqart.

JCS · 02-12-2008, 11:20 AM

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

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Originally Posted by patchy

I regret that religion FORCES otherwise sane people to become retarded.

I regret that Atheism turns otherwise sane people into animals. :wave:

No regrets, since I was animal before atheist. :Cheeky:

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 11:35 AM

[QUOTE=Sheshonq;5149242]

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

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The "many nations" means exactly that, many nations would rise up and attack tyre, like the sea casting it's waves against it, one after the other.

Nope, that is a reference to waves of attacking military units, each from the different nations that formed part of the great Babylonian army. It's just like in World War 2 invasion of Normandy - when "many nations" attacked Nazi Germany, but they were still under the command of the Supreme Allied Commander of Europe, Eisenhower.

Ezekiel clearly identifies Nebuchadnezzar and his army as the agent of destruction for Tyre. There is no escaping that fact. There is also no escaping the fact that the prophecy failed. :rolling:

I'm still waiting for a list of the many nations which formed a part of Nebby's army. If you can find and historical sources to back up your BS claims that would be even better.

arnoldo · 02-12-2008, 11:49 AM

Isaiah 23 seems to give a contradictory prophecy about Tyre that after 70 years of "destruction" it will be restored however it will not be able to keep it's wealth.

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1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.

2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished.

3 And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, even the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins.

5 As at the report concerning Egypt, so shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre.

6 Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle.

7 Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.

8 Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth?

9 The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth.

10 Pass through thy land as a river, O daughter of Tarshish: there is no more strength.

11 He stretched out his hand over the sea, he shook the kingdoms: the LORD hath given a commandment against the merchant city, to destroy the strong holds thereof.

12 And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest.

13 Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin.

14 Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste.

15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.

16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.

17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. 18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing.

Amaleq13 · 02-12-2008, 11:50 AM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

I'm still waiting for a list of the many nations which formed a part of Nebby's army.

Wasn't he allied with the Medes and the Scythians?

Jack the Bodiless · 02-12-2008, 12:03 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

These assumptions was made by a <edit> and so far everyone is merely parroting his lame arguments.

...Wow, waitaminute. Arnoldo, do you actually believe it was Farrell Till who came up with the notion that the Tyre prophecy failed?

Even though you've now been given plenty of historical references for Tyre being on the island (and you've even provided some yourself)? Plus references showing that Nebby never took the island? Plus references showing that Tyre recovered quickly after Alex did take the island?

References that have nothing to do with Farrell Till?

What about the millions of Jews and Christians who accept that the Tyre prophecy failed?

Would you use such terms to describe David Thompson (a Christian), who YOU recommended to us? And what about Dennis Bratcher (also a Christian), and all the others like those?

WVIncagold · 02-12-2008, 12:16 PM

Okay i got news for you. you're not committing a siege for 13 years, you have moved!
Nobody here has adressed the simple military logistics required to hold a seige for 13 years! It is preposterous to think that any army would seige any city for 13 years. To do so shows a significant gap in military knowledge. I dont care by land or sea you may want to look up quatermaster records on the logisitics of keeping a seige army for 13 years.

sugarhitman · 02-12-2008, 12:21 PM

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Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Sugarhitman: again, merely repeating falsehoods doesn't make them true. In particular, "he" and "they" have already been explained (and I notice you're still ignoring the fact that in the LXX, which is OLDER than the Masoretic text that modern Bibles are derived from, "he" is used throughout).

And you're still pretending that Tyre was a "dual city" but blatantly ignoring the fact that ALL the streets of this "dual city" HAS TO INCLUDE those on the ISLAND.

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Nebby was a King of Kings all that means is just that...a king of kings.

...A phrase which means a king over many nations. So what you're saying is "Nebby wasn't a king over many nations, he was just a king over many nations".

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Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And another thing we know (Bible prophecy students) that from verses 7- 14 begins and ends with the mainland city because it was the part that was LAYED in the sea scraped and made like the top of a rock, that was completely destroyed by the nations never to built again.

Nope. Ezekiel was referring to the island, but he was a false prophet. And the mainland was indeed rebuilt. Ushu was a "line of suburbs", spread out along the coast: it wasn't just "where the springs were".

The Masoretic text is the standard Hebrew OT. The LXX is the greek version translated from Hebrew. There are books in LXX that have been added to or subtracted. In Daniel it is added too, Jeremiah is shorter, and Ezekiel contradicts itself in the LXX. Kings James was right to advoid this book when writing the OT. Nice try but that aint gone work. :wave:

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02-12-2008, 12:16 PM	#109
WVIncagold Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: West Virginina Posts: 4,349	Okay i got news for you. you're not committing a siege for 13 years, you have moved! Nobody here has adressed the simple military logistics required to hold a seige for 13 years! It is preposterous to think that any army would seige any city for 13 years. To do so shows a significant gap in military knowledge. I dont care by land or sea you may want to look up quatermaster records on the logisitics of keeping a seige army for 13 years.

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